Poor drafting now biting the Patriots in the butt?

Deus Irae said:

1. Stork's a pure bust.
2. Mitchell's an injury-related bust.

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How is Stork not an injury bust? He failed the physical when he was traded, and didn't have a significant injury history at FSU.

IllegalContact said:

my point stands

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You don’t have a point. You’ve demonstrated that post after post.

203Pat said:

He’s a JAG. Last years O-line was a steam roller. White, Michel, and Patterson all averaged at least 4.5 ypc. He’s good when the line is opening huge holes but what running back isn’t?

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You cannot say Patterson would have preformed equally under pressure on Super Bowl day because Michel did ... Patterson did not. Patterson ran gadget plays ... not the same thing.

For the record Patterson had 2 rushes for 7 yards.
Michel had 18 for 94 yards ...
18 carries generally means the defense was in part keying on him ... and he still performed.

IcyPatriot said:

Disagree ... if he had a big imprint on a Super Bowl victory for any team
that has never won or not won in years he would be a hero for them - context works pro and con.
A draft pick or FA signing in any sport that helps a championship is generally reflected as good.
Some Patriots fans treat Lombardi's as candy ... lots of it ... other franchises they are a treasure.

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Lesser players making big plays are still lesser players. This is more widely accepted in other sports, where lesser players can go on hot streaks (See Jackie Bradley, Jr. and his batting). Also, see 2007 helmet catch for an excellent NFL example. David Tyree will always be a Giants hero, but that doesn't make him a great player. As a 6th round pick, he'll never be a bust, but he had fewer than 60 catches in his entire career.

I get the sentimental angle. I've probably bought into it numerous times over the years, too (Hell, I've probably bought into and used the very same argument you're using here), and I'll fall for it again in the future. But, if we're going to be as neutral as possible in our analysis, we then get to BB's "It is what it is". Michel's been a bust, to date.

ctpatsfan77 said:

How is Stork not an injury bust? He failed the physical when he was traded, and didn't have a significant injury history at FSU.

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They ditched him for reasons beyond injury.

Patriots trade center Bryan Stork to Redskins

Deus Irae said:

Lesser players making big plays are still lesser players. This is more widely accepted in other sports, where lesser players can go on hot streaks (See Jackie Bradley, Jr. and his batting). Also, see 2007 helmet catch for an excellent NFL example. David Tyree will always be a Giants hero, but that doesn't make him a great player. As a 6th round pick, he'll never be a bust, but he had fewer than 60 catches in his entire career.

I get the sentimental angle. I've probably bought into it numerous times over the years, too (Hell, I've probably bought into and used the very same argument you're using here), and I'll fall for it again in the future. But, if we're going to be as neutral as possible in our analysis, we then get to BB's "It is what it is". Michel's been a bust, to date.

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He was 14th in rushing in 2018 ...
He's had an off year so far but still has a chance to come close to 2018 numbers.

That's not a bust ... not performing to draft selection perhaps ... but far from bust.

I move on ...

Deus Irae said:

They ditched him for reasons beyond injury.

Patriots trade center Bryan Stork to Redskins

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I guess we have different definitions, then.

IcyPatriot said:

You cannot say Patterson would have preformed equally under pressure on Super Bowl day because Michel did ... Patterson did not. Patterson ran gadget plays ... not the same thing.

For the record Patterson had 2 rushes for 7 yards.
Michel had 18 for 94 yards ...
18 carries generally means the defense was in part keying on him ... and he still performed.

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We've won w Blount, Smith, Dillon & been successful w others.

RB's are a variable you can easily replace.

We dominated the trenches & won the SB bc of our OL. Not Sony.

I'm surprised so many think we got there & won bc of a RB a few weeks away from 2020.

The last few drafts have been head scratchers for me. The obvious areas of need this season were a fast WR with CP gone, a decent TE with Gronk gone and D line help with Flowers gone. Harry is a lot of things as a WR but fast is not one of them. And where was the TE? Ditto the DE, especially with Bennett flaming out. Also, the 2018 draft was rich in QBs, so why wait until 2019 to draft Stidham?

IcyPatriot said:

You cannot say Patterson would have preformed equally under pressure on Super Bowl day because Michel did ... Patterson did not. Patterson ran gadget plays ... not the same thing.

For the record Patterson had 2 rushes for 7 yards.
Michel had 18 for 94 yards ...
18 carries generally means the defense was in part keying on him ... and he still performed.

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By no means am I saying Patterson could’ve done what Sony did last year. What I am saying is I think plenty of JAG RB’s could have. I think BenJarvus Green-Ellis, Stephan Ridley, and Largarrette Blount all could have.

Agree 100%, especially the last 2 years. To go into the 2018 draft, with I think 5 picks in the 1st 3 rounds, and come out with just Michel, Wynn (good picks, though there were better RBs available) and Duke Dawson (another 2nd round BUST DB), and then our next pick was in the 5th round, was a disgrace. Especially when it was an excellent year to draft TE's, with the threat of Gronk retirement talk AND the need for a pass catching tight end to compliment Gronk, to come out with Ryan Izzo (7th round), was a crime.

Then this year, with great TEs AND an extremely deep WR draft, yet to only come out with a WR who wasn't rated the second or third best (maybe 3rd best). I was fine with taking Harry in the 1st round, DK Metcalf would've been the smart move, in fact when people heard they were taking a WR, most thought Metcalf would be long gone. THEN to trade up in the 2nd round, for quite possibly ANOTHER 2nd round bust DB (one that isn't being used), when they had TWO 2nd round picks, was a crime. Of course, who was taken in those 2 slots the Pats originally owned ? WR's Mecole Hardman (who's exactly what we needed) and DK Metcalf. If they just stayed put and picked those 2 guys, where would our offense be now ? At least one of those 3 receivers would've made a difference. Maybe 2 of them. Or draft a friggen TE in the 2nd round.

Just horrible drafting, is a major reason this dynasty will end, and probably set this franchise back years. You can use the usual joke, Belichick the GM is killing Belichick the coach, but these last few years it's true.

ctpatsfan77 said:

I guess we have different definitions, then.

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Different definitions of what? Injury?

NG Pats Fan said:

2018 NFL draft

1 23 New England Patriots Isaiah Wynn OT Georgia
1 24 Carolina Panthers D. J. Moore WR Maryland
1 25 Baltimore Ravens Hayden Hurst TE South Carolina
1 26 Atlanta Falcons Calvin Ridley WR Alabama
1 27 Seattle Seahawks Rashaad Penny RB San Diego State
1 28 Pittsburgh Steelers Terrell Edmunds S Virginia Tech
1 29 Jacksonville Jaguars Taven Bryan DT Florida
1 30 Minnesota Vikings Mike Hughes CB UCF
1 31 New England Patriots Sony Michel RB Georgia
1 32 Baltimore Ravens Lamar Jackson QB Louisville
2 33 Cleveland Browns Austin Corbett OT Nevada
2 34 New York Giants Will Hernandez G UTEP
2 35 Cleveland Browns Nick Chubb RB Georgia


This one will hurt for a while. Moore, Ridley, Chubb, Jackson are all pro talents. We missed on all 4

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I'll see your point re: Michel, but including Wynn to support your "what could have been" argument seems wildly off the mark, particularly given what we've seen from the overall line play this year.

Michel is not a bust but he's certainly a JAG and definitely not worth a 1st round pick. Pats have not drafted offensive skill players too well under BB. OL is usually good although this year makes you wonder how they decided to depend on an iffy at best LT to lock this thing down. Cannon is sucking this year and I don't know whats up with Mason. I hope it's injury related.

Run DMC said:

Michel is not a bust but he's certainly a JAG and definitely not worth a 1st round pick. Pats have not drafted offensive skill players too well under BB. OL is usually good although this year makes you wonder how they decided to depend on an iffy at best LT to lock this thing down. Cannon is sucking this year and I don't know whats up with Mason. I hope it's injury related.

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A bust is someone who plays significantly below their draft position.
A steal is someone who plays significantly above their draft position.


That's actually why I should have done a better job of wording my post about Stork and Mitchell, as they were failed draft picks, but not busts.


It's also why Michel's been a bust, to date. If people want to try arguing that he's just been a disappointment, rather than a bust, they've got some 'splaining to do about this year.

Injuries, retirements and players not playing up to their potential (on or off the field) are now biting the Pats in the butt.

4th round picks who provide key contributions to a Super Bowl win are not busts

Fewer than 30% of 4th rounders ever contribute meaningfully in the league. I’d take strong contributor to a Super Bowl over a 3-4 year backup which is usually the “good” result for a 4th rounder.

PatsDeb said:

Injuries, retirements and players not playing up to their potential (on or off the field) are now biting the Pats in the butt.

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And assistant coaches leaving...

203Pat said:

By no means am I saying Patterson could’ve done what Sony did last year. What I am saying is I think plenty of JAG RB’s could have. I think BenJarvus Green-Ellis, Stephan Ridley, and Largarrette Blount all could have.

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Speculation is not facts ... and maybe they could have.
All I am hearing from detractors is speculation of who could have done what.
Sony performed on the highest stage ... that is a fact.
He had a decent year 2018 ... that also is a fact.
Fans have a right to be disappointed ... but bust does not apply.

mcmurtry86 said:

4th round picks who provide key contributions to a Super Bowl win are not busts

Fewer than 30% of 4th rounders ever contribute meaningfully in the league. I’d take strong contributor to a Super Bowl over a 3-4 year backup which is usually the “good” result for a 4th rounder.

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The Super Bowl is one game. It's irrelevant.