Honestly I am glad about the receivers for this game

venecol · Nov 23, 2019

aluminum seats said:
I think incorporating targets as another data point in this would be interesting, and may very well lead to a different conclusion than the one you’re making.

Here are the targets. You may be right, but I'm not doing the math.

Ring 6 · Nov 23, 2019

aluminum seats said:
I think incorporating targets as another data point in this would be interesting, and may very well lead to a different conclusion than the one you’re making.

It may slightly change it but I think catches is a better gauge.

venecol · Nov 23, 2019

venecol said:
Here are the targets. You may be right, but I'm not doing the math.

View attachment 25231

Ok I did the math (snap count not independently verified):

Snap counts/targets
Harry 32/4 - 1 per 8
Meyers 238/19 - 1 per 12.5
Dorsett 443/42 - 1 per 10.5
Sanu 145/23 - 1 per 6.3
Gordon 320/36 - 1 per 8.9
Edelman 647/100 - 1 per 6.5

Meyers is lagging all other receivers, which makes sense. Harry doesn't have enough snaps to make a conclusion.

Biffins · Nov 23, 2019

Ice_Ice_Brady said:
You make a good point, but the cost of these players skyrocket now when the Pats are interested. I have no problem with the FA pickups. But keep in mind that this team has been largely protected by Gronkowski for the last nine years which has allowed many guys to get lots of separation. Would like to see them develop a couple of highly productive players that stick more than a hear or two...and at this present moment in time, their options are very limited anyway. I’d just like to see Harry and Meyers get a lot targets once to see if we have something special. That’s all. I don’t feel like Sanu and Dorsett are game changing players, so I’m excited about this game and seeing the rookies try to prove themselves.

yeah we hit the lottery ticket with Gronkowski and that has masked the WR issues all decade. I completely agree. And now we have no Gronk so problems becoming clearer.

Froob · Nov 23, 2019

This take won’t age well

venecol · Nov 23, 2019

I think @Ice_Ice_Brady was just simply trying to make the point that this is a good opportunity to see how the rookies work with Brady since 2 of the top receivers may be out, not that he is happy they are out.

I'm certainly looking forward to it, but wonder if the RBs and TEs still end up taking targets away from the rookies.

MainePatsFan26 · Nov 23, 2019

Ice_Ice_Brady said:
So I am glad Brady will be FORCED to use Meyers and Harry, two of the more promising rookie receivers we’ve had in a while. Maybe it’s going to take a loss, some miscommunication, a couple of interceptions...

First, the offensive line needs to come together so McDaniels can get a better read on what we've got at the "skill" positions (as if playing on the offensive line doesn't require skill).

Once/if that happens, I agree with you that we need to roll the dice on offense more than try something gradual. Most years, the slow and steady tweakfest works. With how abysmal this offense has looked at times, it seems pushing to get Meyers and Harry involved has only upside since otherwise we're not going to beat teams like Baltimore in the playoffs.

Kasmir · Nov 23, 2019

Bill Lee said:
It's pretty clear that PIT's ability to identify WRs is an outlier.

Nothing is clear. Could be just luck, could be they draft lots more WR's than other teams. Nobody knows if no one does any actual comparative analysis.

Kasmir · Nov 23, 2019

Deus Irae said:
Sure but it's a meaningless point. It's also just a guess, so acknowledging it is really just a "for the sake of argument" sort of acknowledgement, and not one of which we can actually be certain.

Your argument is asinine. Meyers has been around all season long. He's been on the field. He's shown an excellent ability to break right when he's supposed to break left, and to quit on routes when he's supposed to be running them hard, but that's not the sort of ability that plays well in New England, either with the QB or the coaching staff. And everyone is hopeful that Harry will be an endzone target, and that's one way he'd almost certainly be looked at this week, regardless of the health of Sanu and Dorsett. Furthermore, by wishing for both WRs to be on the shelf, you're wishing for the team to be down to just 3 wide receivers, all in the hope that an offense that's already struggling will be forced to rely more heavily on two young players still learning the game. So you're wishing for a weakened team for all the wrong freakin' reasons.

****, if you'd said that you wanted the WRs to blow in order to put more pressure on the team to bring in AB, that would at least have made some sense. This crap, of hoping that the better WRs are unavailable so that the QB is forced to pass to (at least currently) lesser players, is the sort of nonsense that deserves to be mocked endlessly.

That's a gross distortion of his point. All he's saying is that when a starter is replaced by an unknown backup, sometimes you learn that the backup is better than you thought. It will certainly be interesting to watch Harry and Meyers, although any sane person would prefer to have the starters healthy.

SHOWTIME15 · Nov 23, 2019

Triumph said:
Hopefully, Edelman and White catch the flu.

Maybe you can catch the flu too and stay off the board for a while...

Ring 6 · Nov 23, 2019

MainePatsFan26 said:
First, the offensive line needs to come together so McDaniels can get a better read on what we've got at the "skill" positions (as if playing on the offensive line doesn't require skill).

Once/if that happens, I agree with you that we need to roll the dice on offense more than try something gradual. Most years, the slow and steady tweakfest works. With how abysmal this offense has looked at times, it seems pushing to get Meyers and Harry involved has only upside since otherwise we're not going to beat teams like Baltimore in the playoffs.

My general overall feeling about the offense over the years has been that mostly when they struggle is when they play a safe “stay on track” get to third and short game plan and when they are best is when they are getting chunk plays (ie throw down the field in 2nd and 10 instead of run to set up 3rd) and that the offense being less effective in the post season prior to 2014 was often because of that.
I feel like we are doing a lot of that the year because the OL has struggled so badly.
We have been so very good on defense that it has worked but we really need the OL to get it together so we can play offense with a full playbook, not eliminating a lot of it because we can’t block for it.

aluminum seats · Nov 23, 2019

venecol said:
All he's saying is that when a starter is replaced by an unknown backup, sometimes you learn that the backup is better than you thought.

I suppose “silver lining” may have been a better way to title thread, but agree with these posts that the main point here makes perfect sense.

EDIT: quoted @Kasmir too but didn’t show up for some reason.

The Brandon Five · Nov 23, 2019

stcjones · Nov 23, 2019

TommyBrady12 said:
Gut feeling we will be running the ball most of the game...

Will depend a lot on Wynn to see if the OL can Gel and start to open some lanes!

shmessy · Nov 23, 2019

venecol said:
Here are the targets. You may be right, but I'm not doing the math.

View attachment 25231

After looking at that table, big ups to Jakobi Meyers!

.

Triumph · Nov 23, 2019

TommyBrady12 said:
Maybe you can catch the flu too and stay off the board for a while...

It would spare me from reading your nonsensical ramblings.

IcyPatriot · Nov 23, 2019

Mod Comment: The forum is moving on from the Andy stuff ...

Stay on topic please.

TB12GOATQB · Nov 23, 2019

Ice_Ice_Brady said:
This team has failed to develop receivers for so many years it’s almost comical. The last time a non-free agent receiver actually played well through his rookie contract was Deion Branch. Remember, even Edelman was going to walk in 2013 for peanuts, having never developed under Brady because Welker got all the reps.

So I am glad Brady will be FORCED to use Meyers and Harry, two of the more promising rookie receivers we’ve had in a while. Maybe it’s going to take a loss, some miscommunication, a couple of interceptions, but Brady needs to start developing younger players or the team will continue to roll with a bunch of veteran scratch tickets every year and a prayer that Edelman doesn’t regress (though he should have by now based on his age.). It had been years of band aids and reliance on superstars to cover up a weak WR development system between Brady and talented young WRs who need actual experience to improve.

I did not feel this way in 2013 about Thompkins and Dobson, though the team did still manage to be one of the top scoring offenses in the league. But I am excited that finally Brady will be forced to trust the younger guys. Sanu is a good player, but giving up a second round pick for him shows the level of desperation this team has gotten at WR. Let me reiterate that in an alternate universe, Edelman signs with the Giants in 2013 and we never knew what he could have become, despite four years of practicing with Brady.

This could be an a embarrassing face-plant on offense and loss. It could also finally be the game where the offense forges an identity. It’s up to Harry and Meyers, but equally, it is up to Brady and McDaniels.

Agree with pretty much all of your assessment except the fetishizing of draft picks. Sanu is better than 99 pct of 2nd rounders who may and probably will never develop.

Ice_Ice_Brady · Nov 23, 2019

luuked said:
Surprised I have to write this but you are aware that the coaching staff doesn't need to try Meyers or Harry ingame to know if they would be doing better than other options. That is what practice is for. They know exactly where everyone is

Then how can you explain overlooking Edelman’s receiving talent from 2009-12? Sometimes guys are better when given more responsibility and having more plays designed with them as the centerpoint. Edelman emerged when he was force fed as the team’s only reliable receiver. For four years he was a filler on offense who the team hardly cared to re-sign other than as a punt returner. Edelman, in just his second game, had over 100 yards against the Jets in 2009 before being relegated to “Welker’s backup.” So you can’t write this off as just a long-term development project. Edelman explained that things changed after Welker left and Brady let him into his inner circle of trust. Meanwhile we’ve seen guys like Lloyd and Cooks enter immediately into that inner circle where the team was certain they needed a lot of targets...didn’t work out that well.

venecol · Nov 23, 2019

aluminum seats said:
I suppose “silver lining” may have been a better way to title thread, but agree with these posts that the main point here makes perfect sense.

EDIT: quoted @Kasmir too but didn’t show up for some reason.

Lol I didn't say that, not sure why my name shows up. Weird.

Honestly I am glad about the receivers for this game

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