To Win is to Fail?

ausbacker · Nov 11, 2019

Call me silly but under no circumstances, would I ever want the Patriots to tank because inside the building, it instills a culture of losing.

Kontradiction · Nov 11, 2019

Ring 6 said:
Your entire post.
You say Flores should tank and support it by saying it’s consistent with BBs believe that every year is a different year.
If that was correct BB would have tanked in 2000.

No, I didn’t. That’s either extremely piss poor reading comprehension or an attempt to construct a straw man argument. Here is the post again. Point out the specific sentences that align with your viewpoint that, and I quote, “You say Flores should tank and support it by saying it’s consistent with BBs believe that every year is a different year.”

KontradictioN said:
Flores has already established his culture there by trimming the fat. Winning is useless at this point. That’s especially true if you really believe BB’s philosophy that every year is different and unique. Winning at this point isn’t putting you in the playoffs and each win only takes away names that would either be at or near the top of your draft board. In other words - this isn’t the time to win anymore. That would have been at the start of the season. They clearly committed to tanking, and they can’t even do that right anymore. It’ll be hilarious if they end up missing out on either of the top two prospects. But at least they’ll have a few completely meaningless wins to look back on in 2019 and appreciate as they’re preaching to treat the 2020 season as if 2019 didn’t happen and that it is a new year, new team, and with new challenges.

Let me help you with this one, since you seem to need it. Nowhere in that post did I insinuate that tanking is consistent with BB’s “believe.” How you read the post that I quoted, followed the thread, and came to that conclusion is beyond me. I’ve arrived at two conclusions - 1) you didn’t process what you are reading, or 2) you’re bored and decided to construct a straw man. I’m assuming it’s option one based on our prior conversations.

Let me help you a bit more - the thread, and the post I quoted, responding to criticism of winning, which is what the Dolphins are doing (see: Not Tanking), by making the argument that winning changes the culture, which bleeds into the next season. My response was that you if you believe in Belichick’s culture, that every season is its own story, then you can possibly take that hypothesis seriously. I highly doubt a win this season is going to register with a team next year that will be completely different. That, my mistaken friend, does not = saying BB believes in tanking. Not even remotely close. Way off.

Now that you have been corrected on the meaning behind my post, I expect this matter will be closed at this time. But if you’d prefer to dig your heels in, by all means... feel free to do so. That stuff entertains me.

TB_Helmet · Nov 11, 2019

Tunescribe said:
The only sport where tanking might remotely make sense is the NBA. Even then, there are compelling arguments against it.

Yeah, it makes more sense there because one player can completely turn around your franchise. Even the top QBs are hard pressed to do that in the NFL if the rest of the team is garbage. Also I'd argue that it's harder to peg a QB as a sure thing than it is a top NBA prospect (witness that list of QBs posted above, and in other threads where we've had this same argument).

IIRC the NBA prospects who were universally proclaimed as no-brainers entering the draft in the past 20 years are only LeBron, Davis, and Greg Oden. So that's two out of three. If I'm an NBA fan and knew I could get LeBron I'd throw away a season for that (although the lottery odds mitigate that a bit).

There are other NBA players at #1 who have been very good since they've come in (Towns, Rose while he was healthy, etc.). Not sure if they're worth tanking for though, YMMV.

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2019

KontradictioN said:
No, I didn’t. That’s either extremely piss poor reading comprehension or an attempt to construct a straw man argument. Here is the post again. Point out the specific sentences that align with your viewpoint that, and I quote, “You say Flores should tank and support it by saying it’s consistent with BBs believe that every year is a different year.”

Let me help you with this one, since you seem to need it. Nowhere in that post did I insinuate that tanking is consistent with BB’s “believe.” How you read the post that I quoted, followed the thread, and came to that conclusion is beyond me. I’ve arrived at two conclusions - 1) you didn’t process what you are reading, or 2) you’re bored and decided to construct a straw man. I’m assuming it’s option one based on our prior conversations.

Let me help you a bit more - the thread, and the post I quoted, responding to criticism of winning, which is what the Dolphins are doing (see: Not Tanking), by making the argument that winning changes the culture, which bleeds into the next season. My response was that you if you believe in Belichick’s culture, that every season is its own story, then you can possibly take that hypothesis seriously. I highly doubt a win this season is going to register with a team next year that will be completely different. That, my mistaken friend, does not = saying BB believes in tanking. Not even remotely close. Way off.

Now that you have been corrected on the meaning behind my post, I expect this matter will be closed at this time. But if you’d prefer to dig your heels in, by all means... feel free to do so. That stuff entertains me.

I’m not sure why you are so triggered by explaining your position.
If was an easy conclusion to read
A) Flores winning games is a bad thing
B) it’s a bad thing because it doesn’t create culture that transfers to future years
C) BECAUSE you believe BB thinks that culture doesn’t continue to next year (this is the part you have wrong btw)

if you mean something else, that’s fine, no need to get your panties in a bunch

I am curious though how you reconcile BB thinking winning when you have bad record isn’t important and thereby, would apparently believe tanking is good because you get better dtaft picks, yet at 2-8 he tried hard to win and went 3-3? It doesn’t seem to add up.

Kontradiction · Nov 11, 2019

Ring 6 said:
I’m not sure why you are so triggered by explaining your position.
If was an easy conclusion to read
A) Flores winning games is a bad thing
B) it’s a bad thing because it doesn’t create culture that transfers to future years
C) BECAUSE you believe BB thinks that culture doesn’t continue to next year (this is the part you have wrong btw)

if you mean something else, that’s fine, no need to get your panties in a bunch

I am curious though how you reconcile BB thinking winning when you have bad record isn’t important and thereby, would apparently believe tanking is good because you get better dtaft picks, yet at 2-8 he tried hard to win and went 3-3? It doesn’t seem to add up.

Nobody’s panties are in a bunch. It’s either your reading comprehension is horrific or you’re attempting a straw man. You’re inventing your own conclusion here and that is very clear. The question becomes which of those two reasons are at fault? Since you’re someone who is newer on the scene here, I’m trying to help you out... do neither. People will think you have a low IQ. Learn where the conversation is going and participate accordingly. I clearly never came to the conclusion that you’re saying I did and I just tore that logic apart in the last post. Take my advice on the matter - just say you were mistaken and let it go. There’s nothing down this path but anger and frustration for you.

TB_Helmet · Nov 11, 2019

Ring 6 said:
I’m not sure why you are so triggered by explaining your position.
If was an easy conclusion to read
A) Flores winning games is a bad thing
B) it’s a bad thing because it doesn’t create culture that transfers to future years
C) BECAUSE you believe BB thinks that culture doesn’t continue to next year (this is the part you have wrong btw)

if you mean something else, that’s fine, no need to get your panties in a bunch

I am curious though how you reconcile BB thinking winning when you have bad record isn’t important and thereby, would apparently believe tanking is good because you get better dtaft picks, yet at 2-8 he tried hard to win and went 3-3? It doesn’t seem to add up.

Is this guy really AJ? He was argumentative but didn’t always seem to be this much of a ****....

PatsFanInVa · Nov 11, 2019

Did Andrew Luck ever get a ring? I forget. I dont think so. Of course, for every Andrew Luck there's what, a Jeff George? Tim Couch?

To me, it seems that blue chip QB draftees, as "part of your complete rebuild," gets you to mediocre if he really performs. Face it, if you suck bad enough to get the guy, you're probably not turning it all around with one guy. He's going to need an O-line. Weapons are good (though overvalued compared with O-line.) You're going to need SOMETHING like a defense.

I think that's why so many guys burn out or just suck when they're supposed to be the savior.

NOBODY is worth tanking **** for. I hate to be absolutist about it, but how corrosive! You convince yourself you've decided you are going to be bad on purpose, that takes the edge off your typical crap season for once, fine, I get it. But after that, if you expect much more than, say, a 3-game swing for having a good college QB, oh shut up. It's not this "given" that god will come with your draftnik fixation and change everything. You want that to happen, you want the 199th pick.

Okay done.

IcyPatriot · Nov 11, 2019

PatsFanInVa said:
Did Andrew Luck ever get a ring? I forget. I dont think so. Of course, for every Andrew Luck there's what, a Jeff George? Tim Couch?

To me, it seems that blue chip QB draftees, as "part of your complete rebuild," gets you to mediocre if he really performs. Face it, if you suck bad enough to get the guy, you're probably not turning it all around with one guy. He's going to need an O-line. Weapons are good (though overvalued compared with O-line.) You're going to need SOMETHING like a defense.

I think that's why so many guys burn out or just suck when they're supposed to be the savior.

NOBODY is worth tanking **** for. I hate to be absolutist about it, but how corrosive! You convince yourself you've decided you are going to be bad on purpose, that takes the edge off your typical crap season for once, fine, I get it. But after that, if you expect much more than, say, a 3-game swing for having a good college QB, oh shut up. It's not this "given" that god will come with your draftnik fixation and change everything. You want that to happen, you want the 199th pick.

Okay done.

So very well done(said).

Kontradiction · Nov 11, 2019

TB_Helmet said:
Is this guy really AJ? He was argumentative but didn’t always seem to be this much of a ****....

I’ve given it a lot of thought and have decided to just treat this dude as his own entity until proven otherwise. He’s like a bizarro version of Andy where maybe in an alternate universe, his parents lived closer to a power plant. But I don’t think he’s Andy. Maybe I’m giving Andy more credit than I should, but I don’t think he’d be so much of a loser that he’d create a burner account two years ago, post on it (then and now), and then deny it being him. I don’t think any middle-aged man not on the spectrum would do that. So I’ll take Ring 6’s word that he’s his own man.

Kontradiction · Nov 11, 2019

PatsFanInVa said:
Did Andrew Luck ever get a ring? I forget. I dont think so. Of course, for every Andrew Luck there's what, a Jeff George? Tim Couch?

To me, it seems that blue chip QB draftees, as "part of your complete rebuild," gets you to mediocre if he really performs. Face it, if you suck bad enough to get the guy, you're probably not turning it all around with one guy. He's going to need an O-line. Weapons are good (though overvalued compared with O-line.) You're going to need SOMETHING like a defense.

I think that's why so many guys burn out or just suck when they're supposed to be the savior.

NOBODY is worth tanking **** for. I hate to be absolutist about it, but how corrosive! You convince yourself you've decided you are going to be bad on purpose, that takes the edge off your typical crap season for once, fine, I get it. But after that, if you expect much more than, say, a 3-game swing for having a good college QB, oh shut up. It's not this "given" that god will come with your draftnik fixation and change everything. You want that to happen, you want the 199th pick.

Okay done.

It’s not just a blue chip prospect or a QB. The Dolphins have a TON of draft capital and a lot of needs. They’re in a very unique position that you’d have to think long and hard to find a recent comparison for. Winning now does them zero good and the argument for how it will bleed into next year is invalid if you truly believe that each year is its own story. All winning does it take prospects off their draft board because their own draft position takes a hit. In their position, it makes sense to just go full tank.

TB_Helmet · Nov 11, 2019

KontradictioN said:
I’ve given it a lot of thought and have decided to just treat this dude as his own entity until proven otherwise. He’s like a bizarro version of Andy where maybe in an alternate universe, his parents lived closer to a power plant. But I don’t think he’s Andy. Maybe I’m giving Andy more credit than I should, but I don’t think he’d be so much of a loser that he’d create a burner account two years ago, post on it (then and now), and then deny it being him. I don’t think any middle-aged man not on the spectrum would do that. So I’ll take Ring 6’s word that he’s his own man.

Agreed, doesn’t seem like an AJ move.

Maybe he’s Chris Stevenson reincarnated, which would be fantastic.

Kontradiction · Nov 11, 2019

TB_Helmet said:
Agreed, doesn’t seem like an AJ move.

Maybe he’s Chris Stevenson reincarnated, which would be fantastic.

Not sure about that. No complaints about millennials yet. Since we are talking about him, how are we feeling about the hypothesis that a millennial gave Stevenson’s wife the pipe and Stevenson walked in on it? Strong possibility? That dude HATED millennials.

TB_Helmet · Nov 11, 2019

KontradictioN said:
Not sure about that. No complaints about millennials yet. Since we are talking about him, how are we feeling about the hypothesis that a millennial gave Stevenson’s wife the pipe and Stevenson walked in on it? Strong possibility? That dude HATED millennials.

Hahaha didn’t think about that at the time but in retrospect it makes sense.

He also complained about them at his work too, which just makes me think they did his job a lot better than he could, especially given his complete inability to have a rational discussion which is usually pretty important at the workplace.

Kontradiction · Nov 11, 2019

TB_Helmet said:
Hahaha didn’t think about that at the time but in retrospect it makes sense.

He also complained about them at his work too, which just makes me think they did his job a lot better than he could, especially given his complete inability to have a rational discussion which is usually pretty important at the workplace.

Maybe a suave millennial came in, took his job, gave his wife the absolute pipe, and Stevenson found out about it? Seems legit. Seems very legit.

TB_Helmet · Nov 11, 2019

KontradictioN said:
Maybe a suave millennial came in, took his job, gave his wife the absolute pipe, and Stevenson found out about it? Seems legit. Seems very legit.

Then on his way out the bedroom window yelled “OK Boomer!!!” and left his Jaguars jersey on the nightstand.

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2019

KontradictioN said:
Nobody’s panties are in a bunch. It’s either your reading comprehension is horrific or you’re attempting a straw man. You’re inventing your own conclusion here and that is very clear. The question becomes which of those two reasons are at fault? Since you’re someone who is newer on the scene here, I’m trying to help you out... do neither. People will think you have a low IQ. Learn where the conversation is going and participate accordingly. I clearly never came to the conclusion that you’re saying I did and I just tore that logic apart in the last post. Take my advice on the matter - just say you were mistaken and let it go. There’s nothing down this path but anger and frustration for you.

I am aware you never drew that conclusion, i am pointing out that this is the reason you point is wrong.
If you think tanking is fine because culture starts over every year and you think Belichick believes culture starts over every year then there is no consistency in that unless Belichick tanked when in your opinion it would have been a good move AND in your opinion he agrees.
He didn’t.

Aside from that the spewing of insults and condescension tells me we should move on because I doubt anyone on the board wants these type of posts clogging up the works.

MainePatsFan26 · Nov 11, 2019

Ring 6 said:
Aside from that the spewing of insults and condescension tells me we should move on because I doubt anyone on the board wants these type of posts clogging up the works.

Reading through everyone's posts, there are obviously a lot of strong feelings on both side. While I believe tanking has its place, what makes things difficult for me with lots of posts are when they try to approach things from Bill Belichick's experiences as a coach. The man started 5-11 with the Patriots before stumbling the next year upon -- to a degree -- the magnificence of Tom Brady. And that only happened by accident when Bledsoe went down. Even when Brady was out in 2008, there was no reason to blow up team culture since #12 would return the next season.

My point is that tanking isn't something that's even been worth entertaining for Bill. He had Bledsoe, an above average starter, and then he had the GOAT.

I also agree with another poster that tanking doesn't mean using the highest draft pick on a single quarterback. You could also trade down and get lots of depth. A number of posters are right that tanking hurts team culture. But without an elite quarterback, you need a team of elite talent and that doesn't usually work in the cap era unless you're overflowing with young talent on rookie deals. I can't see how you develop that type of roster without the draft collateral generated through tanking and wheeling and dealing picks.

From my perspective, if you're mired in mediocrity or terribleness: hire a terrible and nasty coach who doesn't know x's and o'x for a year. He'll alienate players through sheer incompetence and create a toxic environment. The team will lose a ton of games to spite their dear leader, the divas will reveal themselves, and the good soldiers will also emerge. Get high draft picks, fire the coach who everyone hates as a scapegoat, banish the malcontents, and build a new culture with a ton of high picks and the players who remained loyal. A positive atmosphere can then emerge with talent to accompany it.

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2019

MainePatsFan26 said:
Reading through everyone's posts, there are obviously a lot of strong feelings on both side. While I believe tanking has its place, what makes things difficult for me with lots of posts are when they try to approach things from Bill Belichick's experiences as a coach. The man started 5-11 with the Patriots before stumbling the next year upon -- to a degree -- the magnificence of Tom Brady. And that only happened by accident when Bledsoe went down. Even when Brady was out in 2008, there was no reason to blow up team culture since #12 would return the next season.

My point is that tanking isn't something that's even been worth entertaining for Bill. He had Bledsoe, an above average starter, and then he had the GOAT.

I also agree with another poster that tanking doesn't mean using the highest draft pick on a single quarterback. You could also trade down and get lots of depth. A number of posters are right that tanking hurts team culture. But without an elite quarterback, you need a team of elite talent and that doesn't usually work in the cap era unless you're overflowing with young talent on rookie deals. I can't see how you develop that type of roster without the draft collateral generated through tanking and wheeling and dealing picks.

From my perspective, if you're mired in mediocrity or terribleness: hire a terrible and nasty coach who doesn't know x's and o'x for a year. He'll alienate players through sheer incompetence and create a toxic environment. The team will lose a ton of games to spite their dear leader, the divas will reveal themselves, and the good soldiers will also emerge. Get high draft picks, fire the coach who everyone hates as a scapegoat, banish the malcontents, and build a new culture with a ton of high picks and the players who remained loyal. A positive atmosphere can then emerge with talent to accompany it.

I think that in 2000 at 2-8 and with a Qb he clearly didn’t feel was the answer, BB had the perfect opportunity to tank.
Vick was there to tank for. Ironically had he tanked Tom Brady may have never seen the field as a patriot.

MainePatsFan26 · Nov 11, 2019

Ring 6 said:
I think that in 2000 at 2-8 and with a Qb he clearly didn’t feel was the answer, BB had the perfect opportunity to tank.
Vick was there to tank for. Ironically had he tanked Tom Brady may have never seen the field as a patriot.

That's a good point. I'm not sure it proves or disproves tanking as a whole, but with Belichick's skill as a coach it worked out focusing on team culture. It is funny to think Vick would have been considered the answer by Patriot fans at that point.

Ring 6 · Nov 11, 2019

MainePatsFan26 said:
That's a good point. I'm not sure it proves or disproves tanking as a whole, but with Belichick's skill as a coach it worked out focusing on team culture. It is funny to think Vick would have been considered the answer by Patriot fans at that point.

I didn’t mean it to answer the tanking question because it’s one of those things that people just have an opinion about that won’t be changed, but I think it illustrates that BB doesn’t believe in it and values building a winning culture.

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