2020 Defense Cap Hits.....

PATSYLICIOUS · Oct 31, 2019

patsbrasilpatriotas said:
Why not?

Im assuming you’re asking why not to the part about not being able to keep a D like this together for too long, and not the part where I said the turnover shouldn’t be too drastic based on your post above which was great. I dont think were very far off in opinions but based on the year collins is having he may be able to make alot more elsewhere... im thinking one of him and kvn are gone. Which is not terrible given our depth at lb.

butler is an rfa so not too concerned there but shelton has been a beast, I honestly have no idea what kind of deal he is going to seek. Id love to keep all 4 dmc , van noy, collins , shelton but im thinking based on the way teams throw money around 1 or 2 will be gone.

ivanvamp · Oct 31, 2019

DMac might retire after this year, especially if they win another Lombardi. He seemed to be close after last year. That would save some money but obviously create a need. I wonder if Collins would say, “you know what, this is where I’ve gotten a second chance and this is where I play my best so I’m just staying here” without the need to break the bank.

PATSYLICIOUS · Oct 31, 2019

patsbrasilpatriotas said:
Will they find a better player than Chung for 1,4M?

They are in good shape. They don't need to cut JMac, Hightower or any player ...

is chungs cap savings 1.4 m if cut? If so that would make no sense to cut him unless he begins to suck.

jmac was just signed to the 2 year deal so that would be a pretty bad signing if they’re taking a dead cap hit 1 year after.. im thinking both will be here next year.

SBLIII · Oct 31, 2019

PATSYLICIOUS said:
is chungs cap savings 1.4 m if cut? If so that would make no sense to cut him unless he begins to suck.

jmac was just signed to the 2 year deal so that would be a pretty bad signing if they’re taking a dead cap hit 1 year after.. im thinking both will be here next year.

why bad contract?

He is playing well this year has a dead cap of 1.75 million in 2020

PATSYLICIOUS · Oct 31, 2019

SBLIII said:
why bad contract?

He is playing well this year has a dead cap of 1.75 million in 2020

if its under 2m in dead cap its not that bad i guess, it just seems a bit counterintuitive to sign someone to a 2 year deal and cut him on year 2. If he’s still playing well he’ll be here imo

SBLIII · Oct 31, 2019

PATSYLICIOUS said:
if its under 2m in dead cap its not that bad i guess, it just seems a bit counterintuitive to sign someone to a 2 year deal and cut him on year 2. If he’s still playing well he’ll be here imo

yep but I wouldn't be surprised at all when a 33 year old drops off during training camp and doesn't make the final 53

ViperGTS · Oct 31, 2019

PATSYLICIOUS said:
Collins and van noy are going to be tough to keep imo, hope im wrong... but im preparing for at least one to be gone and Bentley stepping in. Considerable downgrade but hopefully its just one spot . Dmc id imagine can be back for reasonable. Assuming no cuts/trades should have mostly a repeat of this years d.

I agree but I wonder if the grass isn’t greener for both. Meaning Van Noy loves it in NE and Collins came back after being shipped out. Will they get paid? Yes. Will it be outside of NE? I am not so sure.

SBLIII · Oct 31, 2019

ViperGTS said:
I agree but I wonder if the grass isn’t greener for both. Meaning Van Noy loves it in NE and Collins came back after being shipped out. Will they get paid? Yes. Will it be outside of NE? I am not so sure.

so you are doubting that they will get substantial offers in March?

masterbouncer · Oct 31, 2019

not sure about Collins, he has already experienced that money isn't everything if you ain't winning anything with a ****ty team, a fair deal with BB would likely make him stay in NE...

for KVN it might be different

main issue will be, ex Patriots DCs that are HCs now will be all over any NE FA especially D# players

ViperGTS · Oct 31, 2019

SBLIII said:
so you are doubting that they will get substantial offers in March?

No I am saying those players are more likely to take a smaller deal to stay than break the bank. I could be wrong of course but as I said they both seem to love the organization and why leave or leave again for Collins.

Remember Chung left, came back and signed a good deal.

Family · Oct 31, 2019

This is a "lightning in a bottle - perfect storm" year for the defense.

Lots of guys gone next season.

patfanken · Oct 31, 2019

PatsFan2 said:
Hightower and Gilmore ain't taking no paycuts they are both still in the prime of their careers. I don't know how Jonathan Jones made your list now Jason McCourty I can understand. That said both Collins and Van Noy are must haves they would keep this current D at this same level.

It's not only the defense, but your comments are on point. This is why I get so pissed at Felger-like comments that we just have to "make a few contract adjustments" in order to free up all the cap space we want. That is just NOT so.

This team is now reaping both the benefits and problems that come from LONG term success at the top of the league. Good players on good teams get PAID! That is a simple fact of life, and over on Park Ave NYC, there are those who are GLEEFULLY awaiting (and hoping) that the fact that the Pats are reaching the limits of what even THEY can do to maintain cap sanity, and come back to the league.

The Pats have been to the superbowl FOUR of the last 5 years and it could reach 5 of 6 this season. Collins is GOING to be paid. Van Noy is GOING to be paid. And you are right, Hightower, Gilmore, DMcCourty, etc, are NOT going to take any pay cuts. Add all that to what's happening on the offense and anyone who expects next year's team to be similar to this one, is delusional.

I've read where the Pats will likely go into next season with around $55MM in cap space. Now while that might sound like a lot, it really isn't when you consider that that number is ALL we have to spend to keep Brady, Thuney, Collins, Van Noy, Shelton etc, etc, etc to go along with the other FIFTEEN FA's the Pats will have to pay from this current team

In other words, despite what Felger would have to believe, this team is heading into big time salary cap doodoo that I believe will drastically change the make up of this team going forward. My guess is that MAYBE we can forestall it for another year if we want to make it even worse going forward.

RobertWeathers · Oct 31, 2019

Family said:
This is a "lightning in a bottle - perfect storm" year for the defense.

Lots of guys gone next season.

High, Jamie, DMC and JMC have all gotten their $. They need to decide if they want another big payday or stay with a contender for reasonable $.

The biggest flight risk is KVN. That dude deserves a big payday.

I bet Shelton gets a good deal as well.

Can't keep everyone

PatsFan2 · Oct 31, 2019

@Ken I don't think Jamie Collins is going to get paid by anyone but the Patriots. History have shown that he only plays well for Team X. I don't see Jamie leaving this Team he's a different player in a good way here and here only.

Patsgofor4 · Oct 31, 2019

patsbrasilpatriotas said:
Will they find a better player than Chung for 1,4M?

They are in good shape. They don't need to cut JMac, Hightower or any player ...

They aren’t going to keep JMac at that cap hit and they aren’t going to keep Joejuan on the bench for another year.

Will be interesting to see if Obi finally blossoms or whether his size and elite athleticism will continue to lag behind his instincts.

I cannot see them moving on from both Chung and Dmac, even disregarding on-field production. That would leave a massive leadership void in the locker room.

Biffins · Oct 31, 2019

patsbrasilpatriotas said:
Salary Cap:

2019 $2,874,987 (this number will increase once they cut 2 players for Harry and Wynn)
2020 $42,184,396
2021 $112,743,349
2022 $168,612,532

2020

1) Brady's extension:

30m signing bonus | 2 year deal Cap hits: 20m | 22m | 30.5m average per year
Dead Money 2022: $19,045,000 (Signing Bonus)

2020 $28,934,396
2021 $97,493,349
2022 $168,612,532 / $142,567,532 (Dead Money accounted 2022:$19,045,000)

2)
Extend: Stephen Gostkowski | Cap hits: 4m | 4.5m | 4.8m

2020 $30,196,896
2021 $92,993,349
2022 $137,722,532

D. McCourty: 1 year deal | Cap hit: 6m | 3m (Dead Money accounted 2021:$3,000,000)

2020 $24,196,896
2021 $89,993,349
2022 $137,722,532

KVN: 3 year deal | Cap hits: 6m | 7m | 11m (Kj Wright is 30 and making 7m per)

2020 $18,196,896
2021 $82,993,349
2022 $128,722,532

Matthew Slater: 1 year deal | Cap hit: 2.5m

2020 $15,696,896
2021 $82,993,349
2022 $128,722,532

T. Karras: 2 year deal | Cap hits: 1.75m | 2m

2020 $13,946,896
2021 $81,993,349
2022 $128,722,532

Shilique Calhoun: 1 year deal | Cap hit: 1.5m

2020 $12,446,896
2021 $81,993,349
2022 $128,722,532

Adam Butler: 4 year deal | Cap hits: 2.5m | 4.5m | 5.5m | 7.5m

2020 $9,946,896
2021 $77,493,349
2022 $123,222,532

Joey Thuney: 5 year deal | Cap hits: 6m | 9.5m | 11.5m | 13.5m | 14.5m (Bitonio is 28 and making 10m per)

2020 $3,946,896
2021 $67,993,349
2022 $111,722,532

D. Shelton: 3 year deal | Cap hits: 2.5m | 4.5m | 5.5m | 6.5m

2020 $1,446,896
2021 $63,493,349
2022 $106,222,53

Extend

Stephon Gilmore 3 year deal | Cap hits: 15.5m | 15.5m | 17m | 18m | 19m

2020 $4,446,896
2021 $69,493,349
2022 $87,222,532

Elandon Roberts 3 year deal | Cap hits: 2.25m | 2.75m | 3.75m

2020 $2,196,896
2021 $66,743,349
2022 $83,472,532

Jamie Collins 3 year deal | Cap hits: 4m | 10.5m | 12.5m

2020 ($1,803,104)
2021 $56,298,349
2022 $70,972,532

Practice Squad yr.: 2,5000,0000
Draft 2020: 2,500,0000
Total = 4,500,000

2020 ($6,303,104)
2021 $56,298,349
2022 $70,972,532

So,

($6,303,104) + LTBE incentives not earned from 2019 (Eg. Gostkowski roster bonus) - NLTBE incentives from 2019 (Eg. Jamie Collins All Pro) ...

2020: ($6,303,104)
+ Roll Over from 2019 +$2,876,787 + 2 player that we cut
+ LTBE incentives not earned from 2019 (Eg. Gostkowski roster bonus)
+ Player above 51 rule
- NLTBE incentives from 2019 (Eg. Jamie Collins All Pro) ...

Players Under Contract 2020: 56 + Draft 2020
Players Under Contract 2021: 35 + Draft 2020/21
Players Under Contract 2020: 20 + Draft 2020/21/22

How can we create extra cap space?

Extend Hightower/Guy/James White/Harmon ...

Restructure: P.Chung/Jonathan Jones

Roster 2020

QB (2): Tom Brady (2021) | Jarrett Stidham (2022)
RB (5): Rex Burkhead (2020) | Damien Harris (2022) | Sony Michel (2021) | James White (2020) | RB Brandon Bolden (2020)
FB (1): James Develin (2020)
WR (5): Mohamed Sanu (2020) | Julian Edelman (2021) | Draft pick #3 (2023) | N’Keal Harry (2022) | Jakobi Meyers (2022)
TE (3): Ben Watson (2020) | Draft pick #1 (2023) | Draft pick #4 (2023)
OC (2): Ted Karras (2021) | David Andrews (2020)
OT (4) Marcus Cannon (2021) | Isaiah Wynn (2021) | Draft pick #3 (2023) | Yodny Cajuste (2022)
OG (3) Shaq Mason (2023) | Hjalte Froholdt (2022) | Joey Thuney (2024)

DL (6): Draft pick #3 (2023) | Lawrence Guy (2020) | Adam Butler (2023) | Byron Cowart (2022) | Deatrich Wise (2020) | Danny Shelton (2022)
ILB (2): Ja’Whaun Bentley (2021) | Elandon Roberts (2023)
OLB (6): Jamie Collins (2022) | Dont’a Hightower (2020) | John Simon (2020) | Chase Winovich (2022) | Kyle Van Noy (2022) | Shilique Calhoun (2020)
CB (5): Stephon Gilmore (2021) | JC Jackson (2021) | Jonathan Jones (2022) | Jason McCourty (2020) | Joejuan Williams (2022)
S (4): Terrence Brooks (2020) | Patrick Chung (2021) | Devin McCourty (2020) | Duron Harmon (2020)
ST (6): Stephen Gostkowski (2021) | P Jake Bailey (2022) | LS Joe Cardona (2022) | LB Brandon King (2021) | WR Matthew Slater (2020) | Justin Bethel (2020)

NFI/PUP (0):
SUSPENDED (0):
IR (0):

Did they hire you yet?

mgteich · Oct 31, 2019

I agree that next year's team cannot be the equal of this year's team. $55M is a good number to start with.

OFFENSE ($28M)
Brady at $20M
Dorsett at $5M (or another free agent)
Karras at $3M (andrews is not guaranteed; Karras is needed as backup)
Thuney is gone
that's all there is folks

DEFENSE
We're not going to be able to pay Van Noy.
Collins could sign a team friendly deal.
McCourty could sign a last contract with money pushed forward in a fake year.
Shelton is likely to get paid by someone.
REALITY Is that we could lose all four.

Butler is an RFA which gives us the leverage to sign a deal with him.
It is likely that we try to bring back Calhoun and Roberts (not a huge expense).

SPECIAL TEAMS
Both Slater and Ebner are free agents.

BOTTOM LINE
Cap money will be tight next year.

patfanken said:
It's not only the defense, but your comments are on point. This is why I get so pissed at Felger-like comments that we just have to "make a few contract adjustments" in order to free up all the cap space we want. That is just NOT so.

This team is now reaping both the benefits and problems that come from LONG term success at the top of the league. Good players on good teams get PAID! That is a simple fact of life, and over on Park Ave NYC, there are those who are GLEEFULLY awaiting (and hoping) that the fact that the Pats are reaching the limits of what even THEY can do to maintain cap sanity, and come back to the league.

The Pats have been to the superbowl FOUR of the last 5 years and it could reach 5 of 6 this season. Collins is GOING to be paid. Van Noy is GOING to be paid. And you are right, Hightower, Gilmore, DMcCourty, etc, are NOT going to take any pay cuts. Add all that to what's happening on the offense and anyone who expects next year's team to be similar to this one, is delusional.

I've read where the Pats will likely go into next season with around $55MM in cap space. Now while that might sound like a lot, it really isn't when you consider that that number is ALL we have to spend to keep Brady, Thuney, Collins, Van Noy, Shelton etc, etc, etc to go along with the other FIFTEEN FA's the Pats will have to pay from this current team

In other words, despite what Felger would have to believe, this team is heading into big time salary cap doodoo that I believe will drastically change the make up of this team going forward. My guess is that MAYBE we can forestall it for another year if we want to make it even worse going forward.

patsfaninpa · Nov 1, 2019

If Tom comes back, that limits the defensive players we can bring back.

I think Dmac retirees. Thuney and Collins get offers we can’t match.

I think we can keep Van Noy, Shelton and A. Butler.

On offense we’ll need a G or T(depends where Wynn ends up) and a TE. Let’s hope Andrews returns.

Would you trade our 1st for OJ Howard and TB’s 3rd? Would they? I think so. Only have Howard for one more year

patsbrasilpatriotas · Nov 1, 2019

PATSYLICIOUS said:
is chungs cap savings 1.4 m if cut? If so that would make no sense to cut him unless he begins to suck.

jmac was just signed to the 2 year deal so that would be a pretty bad signing if they’re taking a dead cap hit 1 year after.. im thinking both will be here next year.

2m savings - salary cap of the player that is gonna take his spot. So tha savings will be minimal.

patsbrasilpatriotas · Nov 1, 2019

PATSYLICIOUS said:
Im assuming you’re asking why not to the part about not being able to keep a D like this together for too long, and not the part where I said the turnover shouldn’t be too drastic based on your post above which was great. I dont think were very far off in opinions but based on the year collins is having he may be able to make alot more elsewhere... im thinking one of him and kvn are gone. Which is not terrible given our depth at lb.

butler is an rfa so not too concerned there but shelton has been a beast, I honestly have no idea what kind of deal he is going to seek. Id love to keep all 4 dmc , van noy, collins , shelton but im thinking based on the way teams throw money around 1 or 2 will be gone.

KVN and Collins will be 30+ .. Anthony Barr is the top paid guy with 13.5 per and only 26.

If they want to top that ( i don't think they can or will, so be it).

But 9m or 10m per for Collins IMO is more than fair.

If they let one of them leave it will not be the end of the world, and in that case i hop they bring a TE (Ebron or Hooper)

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