What makes an elite defense? Stars vs Depth

SBLIII said:

Eh, this defense has more star power than one might think.

McCourty, Jones, Gilmore, Hightower and Collins all play at a Pro Bowl level. Maybe van Noy.

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Whoa there. Jones and Collins aren't Pro Bowlers. Van Noy isn't either. They're great players for our team sure - but they aren't among the Top 5-6 or so guys at their position in their conference. Gilmore, McCourty, and possibly Hightower are the guys that could be on that list.

HailHydra said:

Whoa there. Jones and Collins aren't Pro Bowlers. Van Noy isn't either. They're great players for our team sure - but they aren't among the Top 5-6 or so guys at their position in their conference. Gilmore, McCourty, and possibly Hightower are the guys that could be on that list.

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I said they are playing at a Pro Bowl level. They absolutely do. Jones is the top rated cornerback in the NFL right now and Collins seems to play at the level he was before he got traded to Cleveland.

HailHydra said:

Whoa there. Jones and Collins aren't Pro Bowlers. Van Noy isn't either. They're great players for our team sure - but they aren't among the Top 5-6 or so guys at their position in their conference. Gilmore, McCourty, and possibly Hightower are the guys that could be on that list.

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Jamie Collins made the Pro Bowl in 2015. That makes him a Pro Bowler.

The difference between perceived stars and just good players on the Pats and across the league is often a very thin line. Hightower has only been a Pro Bowler one time I believe yet has arguably been the best post season defensive player in Pats history. Very hard to compare defensive players across the league as teams have completely different playing styles and player expectations. Vince Wilfork is a potential HOFer yet he averaged about 1 sack a year with maybe 40 tackles. When it comes time to vote does that get held against him?

Defensive greats will sneak up on you. People in patriots fandom were whining about this stupid "elephant" role while McGinnest was playing, finally got used to how he's used, went "ohhhhh," and then declared him great about 10 minutes before he retired. Not everybody, but the usual ultra-certain contingent.

Most important thing is to have talent at the right spots. When you have an elite secondary that can cover (including a couple good coverage linebackers) and forces a couple of turnovers your defense is already very very good.

Elite front 7 with 2 HOFers and a trash secondary will still get you burned.

TommyD4207 said:

Jamie Collins made the Pro Bowl in 2015. That makes him a Pro Bowler.

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Why would you care if someone was a Pro Bowler 4 years ago when considering the current team?

HailHydra said:

Why would you care if someone was a Pro Bowler 4 years ago when considering the current team?

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Because he is just as good maybe?

HailHydra said:

Why would you care if someone was a Pro Bowler 4 years ago when considering the current team?

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You said there were no Pro Bowlers. You were wrong.

Oh, that guy had two picks last week, 1 for a TD.

One interesting thing about the last few years is few people seem to consider anyone off the Pats but Brady and Gronk to be HOFers. When Andrews, Thuney, Mason, Edelman, Hightower, McCourty, Gilmore, and Van Noy all retire with a fistful of rings and another SB appearance, several of those guys are going to be worthy of HOF consideration. Lesser “dyansties” had handfuls of HOFers. Too much weight is given to largely meaningless regular season stats like tackles and sacks. You can make a lot of tackles after 5 yard gains on a bad defense that cant get off the field. Or a lot of sacks if you ignore your run game responsibilities.

Start with a star CB1, then mix the stars/depth/scheme according to what's available to you.

Shelton is playing at a probowl level right now.

You need enough depth to withstand injuries whether for a play or a series a game or IR

You need enough quality of depth so that every defender is good at doing their job and doesn’t have to have the defensive scheme altered and neutered to cover their weaknesses

You need to have 11 guys that can all do their job and win their 1v1 matchups with reasonable regularity

It helps a lot to have guys that can do multiple things well to keep coverages disguised without alignment or personnel giving it away

And lastly you need a certain amount of star power that the other offense needs to account for - guys that just NEED to be double teamed, or chipped off the edge, or can cover on an island. A couple of those guys limits the offenses chess moves, and having a couple of elite defenders does that best. You don’t need an entire roster of them, but a couple go a long way. This enables the other in box defenders to see less attention, or the secondary to focus more on other weapons.

See importance of other points though, in that a D of four stars and the rest scrubs won’t do as well as 9 very solid defenders and two stars

That's a great debate..
Even though we saw great defenses filled with stars in the past, I think that in the present a great defense is easier to be done with depth.
Our defense is the best example, we have a solid group in every position, versatility and a few good backups. We have only one all pro, which is Gilmore.
If we look the rest of the nfl, how many players by thenselfs take a defense to the next level? Mack, Donald, earl Thomas, Bobby wagner, Gilmore, cox, watt, von Miller (getting older) and a only a few more. And if you pay then top dollar (top pass rusher is the best example) you limit the money to spend in the rest of the defense and to the whole team

Didn’t need so much star power back then. Bill is probably one of the best teachers this game has ever seen. For the coaches like Bill and Dante they had a lot more time to work with these players. Could call two a days whenever he wanted. Padded practices. He is still great at it and far ahead of anyone even with todays restrictions.

He was taking guys like Gay and Moreland and turning them into stable players that could spot start in a pinch. Dante was working with a wrestler and turned him into something special on that offensive line. Not so sure with the time constraints if they could of done the same back then?

Which leads me to believe what they are doing in todays game is even harder and more demanding. They’ve evolved better than anyone else.

To have a great defense you need the following:

1.) a great scheme.
2.) players who can execute that scheme
3.) tremendous communication amongst all three levels of the defense.
4.) everybody executing their assignments at a very high level.
5.) the luck of good health and/or depth.

Defense is a house of cards. If the base is built properly, you have a strong foundation to build on. One bad card though, and the whole thing crumbles!