Scary Good Defense

Clonamery said:

I didn't say he wasn't. I thought it seemed odd when you said:


A player's position (i.e., DL) seems rigid while responsibility and alignment can be quite flexible.

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Ok you seem to want to go through an exercise in semantics to prove something is what it isn’t.
I’m not interested in such a boondoggle.

AndyJohnson said:

Ok you seem to want to go through an exercise in semantics to prove something is what it isn’t.
I’m not interested in such a boondoggle.

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But I was getting to my point.

PP2 said:

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In reading the article that @patfanken referenced, it appears they refer to this as 6/1 front alignment using 4/3 personnel. The 3 is because Chung played as a LB, proved by the fact that HT replaced his role after Chung got injured (per the article).

Clonamery said:

But I was getting to my point.

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I doubt that.

mgteich said:

You mention cap SAVINGS. I don't see any of your suggested cuts as cap savings, except for Ebner. It would likely cost at least as much to replace any of the other players with a player with expected equal or better production.

I don't think that ANY of the cuts would help the 2019 team. In fact, I would see every one of them as hurting the team.

Cuts COULD help future teams, if the money was used for extensions.

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I don't think those cuts would help the 2019 team either, at least not at the beginning of the year. However, there are going to be difficult cuts on this D regardless, and if those cuts come from areas of depth, like the secondary, there doesn't need to be a signing to offset those savings.

With DMac carrying the biggest cap number behind Brady, renegotiating with him seems likely. A $9.5M payout seems steep for one year for him. Harmon has filled-in capably as a deep safety, even if he lacks the man coverage skills, but with the CB depth, there are options. DMac is pretty much family and could be a starter for 2 or 3 more years, so I expect a renegotiation gets done there.

I'd expect to see Roberts and Pennel cut (maybe Ebner goes, too) and extensions worked out with 2 of 3 of DMac, HT & KVN. Still, there always seems to be some veteran cut that surprises us, so I compiled the list to see if anyone stood-out as being that guy. Maybe I'll make an actual prediction after Thursday's game.

If Pennel gets cut, I will wait so see who Belichick trades for to fill his DT spot.

pencilneckgeek said:

I don't think those cuts would help the 2019 team either, at least not at the beginning of the year. However, there are going to be difficult cuts on this D regardless, and if those cuts come from areas of depth, like the secondary, there doesn't need to be a signing to offset those savings.

With DMac carrying the biggest cap number behind Brady, renegotiating with him seems likely. A $9.5M payout seems steep for one year for him. Harmon has filled-in capably as a deep safety, even if he lacks the man coverage skills, but with the CB depth, there are options. DMac is pretty much family and could be a starter for 2 or 3 more years, so I expect a renegotiation gets done there.

I'd expect to see Roberts and Pennel cut (maybe Ebner goes, too) and extensions worked out with 2 of 3 of DMac, HT & KVN. Still, there always seems to be some veteran cut that surprises us, so I compiled the list to see if anyone stood-out as being that guy. Maybe I'll make an actual prediction after Thursday's game.

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mgteich said:

If Pennel gets cut, I will wait so see who Belichick trades for to fill his DT spot.

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You think Guy, Butler and Cowart are a few pounds too light in their 3-3/3-4 defense to spell Shelton? I guess I can see that. He may still need to be replaced given the way he's performed.

I think this has the potential to be our best defense since at least 2014.

AndyJohnson said:

I doubt that.

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Sure, I was kidding around some. I know you disagree with the point @patfanken was trying to make with the SB defense playing a 6-1. I mean, what's in a name? That which we call a 6-1 defense by any other name would smell as sweet. (Shakespeare)

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203Pat said:

I think this has the potential to be our best defense since at least 2014.

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I think adding Bentley & Winovich to this defense is going to be huge. And I have to admit JoeJuan Williams is looking good, I hated that pick, but looks like I was dead wrong (not the 1st nor the last time that’ll happen).

Clonamery said:

Sure, I was kidding around some. I know you disagree with the point @patfanken was trying to make with the SB defense playing a 6-1. I mean, what's in a name? That which we call a 6-1 defense by any other name would smell as sweet. (Shakespeare)

Exclusive from Woody Paige: Vic Fangio is creating a gameplan to turn the Denver Broncos back into a championship team

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Yes I am talking about personnel.
As the article stated lining up with 6 players (not DL) standing at the line was a disguise.
It’s an entirely different thing to put 6 DL players on the field than to have 42 nickel personnel lining up uniquely.

I mean I didn’t think anyone presupposed that when you had 43 personnel on the field they all had to line up in the same spot every time or it’s no longer a 43.

I’ll put it another way.
There is a tremendous difference between

Clayborn Shelton butler brown guy flowers
Hightower
2 corners and 2 safeties.

And

Chung clayborn butler guy flowers van noy
Hightower
2 corners 2 safeties.


Differences in both why and how you use those groupings and the assignments those players would have.

scott99 said:

I think adding Bentley & Winovich to this defense is going to be huge. And I have to admit JoeJuan Williams is looking good, I hated that pick, but looks like I was dead wrong (not the 1st nor the last time that’ll happen).

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I’m not expecting much from Bentley because there is nowhere for him to play much unless we have injuries.
It will be interesting to see how bb uses winovich.
Williams is intriguing too.

AndyJohnson said:

I’m not expecting much from Bentley because there is nowhere for him to play much unless we have injuries.
It will be interesting to see how bb uses winovich.
Williams is intriguing too.

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Winovich will play a lot more than Bentley. Williams might play more than Jackson who could enter the sophomore slump.

Bentley will likely be rotated in for HT and KVN, and those two will share time with Collins and Winovich on the edge. He'll get his snaps, although maybe not much at the beginning of the year, as he has some catching-up to do after the lost year.

The Pats have no issues with their CAP right now - more than 12m sitting there - so they're not cutting for savings. They're cutting to keep their best current/best projected future players (by that, I mean that I expect them to keep Myers even if he's not better than, say, Harris...also why I hope hope hope Cowart makes the team).

I'm not nearly as worried about the DL as some here. Their pressure will come from a versatile LB corps, including several players who love to take shots at QBs. All they need is for Shelton/Pennell to hold up in the middle and this is the best Pats D going into a season in more than a decade. I really believe that.

50-yard-line said:

The Pats have no issues with their CAP right now - more than 12m sitting there - so they're not cutting for savings. They're cutting to keep their best current/best projected future players (by that, I mean that I expect them to keep Myers even if he's not better than, say, Harris...also why I hope hope hope Cowart makes the team).

I'm not nearly as worried about the DL as some here. Their pressure will come from a versatile LB corps, including several players who love to take shots at QBs. All they need is for Shelton/Pennell to hold up in the middle and this is the best Pats D going into a season in more than a decade. I really believe that.

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"No issues" is a bit of an exaggeration. Having $12MM is a number that is on the edge being comfortable going into the season. It used to be you'd like to be $5-7MM under going into a season in case you had to add personnel during the season, but that when the price of doing that was about half what it is now.

In an ideal world the Pats would like to keep that number to roll over into next year when Brady's cap number will likely jump a lot, and other cap issues will arise that could affect their ability to be competitive.

But as far as this year goes, the $12mm is enough to be prudent, but not enough to add anyone of elite status. So they can add a Cameron Brate, for example, but not much more.

patfanken said:

"No issues" is a bit of an exaggeration. Having $12MM is a number that is on the edge being comfortable going into the season. It used to be you'd like to be $5-7MM under going into a season in case you had to add personnel during the season, but that when the price of doing that was about half what it is now.

In an ideal world the Pats would like to keep that number to roll over into next year when Brady's cap number will likely jump a lot, and other cap issues will arise that could affect their ability to be competitive.

But as far as this year goes, the $12mm is enough to be prudent, but not enough to add anyone of elite status. So they can add a Cameron Brate, for example, but not much more.

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Who would they add who's "elite" at this point? I mean, unless Gronk un-retired (and that would be enough of a pro-rate on salary for them to handle it right now.

My point is, looking at McCourty and saying cut him for the CAP really doesn't ring true to me at all right now.

scott99 said:

I think adding Bentley & Winovich to this defense is going to be huge. And I have to admit JoeJuan Williams is looking good, I hated that pick, but looks like I was dead wrong (not the 1st nor the last time that’ll happen).

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I feel like this year we have some quality depth in the front 7 for the first time in a while. I finally feel like we have some quality battles for roster spots in that group and there won't be any "well he has to make the team because we need the bodies" guys. Being able to rotate in quality fresh pass rushers is the key to defense is today's NFL. Those big guys get gassed slamming into O-linemen every play and it helps everyone on the defense to have the front 7 rested.

AndyJohnson said:

Of course i will if you present good evidence.
An opinion that a safety playing up on the line when he has a short zone responsibility should be considered a DL wouldn’t be “evidence”.

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Andy, people aren't claiming that that lining up in a 6-1 means you have 6 defensive linemen on the field. *You're* claiming that. Most of us recognize that an alignment has to do with where people are positioned more than titles. I will grant you that the responsibilities of the players also play a role (as you are strenuously arguing) in deciding how best to describe it.

In the case of the 6-1 alignment, it was very effective against the Rams because the responsibilities of those on the LOS significantly included stopping any sweep runs making the Rams running (and passing!) game one-dimensional. Whether it was a DL or a LB with that responsibility isn't really the point as they each would have had similar if not identical run-stopping responsibilities should it have been a run.

TruthSeeker said:

Andy, people aren't claiming that that lining up in a 6-1 means you have 6 defensive linemen on the field. *You're* claiming that. Most of us recognize that an alignment has to do with where people are positioned more than titles. I will grant you that the responsibilities of the players also play a role (as you are strenuously arguing) in deciding how best to describe it.

In the case of the 6-1 alignment, it was very effective against the Rams because the responsibilities of those on the LOS significantly included stopping any sweep runs making the Rams running (and passing!) game one-dimensional. Whether it was a DL or a LB with that responsibility isn't really the point as they each would have had similar if not identical run-stopping responsibilities should it have been a run.

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It’s not about titles it’s about the player and his assignment.
Again when you play a 43 and put one of the lbs on the line jamming the TE is it a 52? No it isn’t.
I recognize that “most of you” aren’t calling
a nickel package with a lb and a s up on the line because you think there are 6 DL, you are calling it that because you are misnaming it.
Who has the responsibility is a huge part of it.


Nickel personnel is a nickel defense. It is an entirely different scheme, package and designed to take away an entirely different offensive package than a 6 DL 6-1 defense.
It’s night and day.