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Scary Good Defense


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42 nickel.
4 dl
kvn on the line LB
HT MLB
Chung at safety playing in the box near the line on the left end and covering the flat.
4 other dbs.
I don't want to start a 4 page slap fest but you can change the verbiage all you want, but that was 6 men on the LOS covering each OLman except the C and one middle LB. It couldn't be clearer, and I can't figure out why you can't or won't admit it.

Just because KVN is a LB on the scorecard, doesn't mean he can't align in a 6-1. Chung wasn't "in the box", he was lined ON the LOS next to a DLman. Just for once admit it, man. I've been wrong lots of time. I promise you won't die if you do. ;)

BTW- if anyone knows how to screenshot that one play, I'd appreciate you putting it up.
 
Rivers is gone.
I’m going to have to agree here. He hasn’t done much of note in the regular season games he’s been active in and has dealt with injuries since being active. Combine that with the depth at the position and he’s an obvious candidate to get the axe during final cut downs.
 
I don't want to start a 4 page slap fest but you can change the verbiage all you want, but that was 6 men on the LOS covering each OLman except the C and one middle LB. It couldn't be clearer, and I can't figure out why you can't or won't admit it.

Just because KVN is a LB on the scorecard, doesn't mean he can't align in a 6-1. Chung wasn't "in the box", he was lined ON the LOS next to a DLman. Just for once admit it, man. I've been wrong lots of time. I promise you won't die if you do. ;)

BTW- if anyone knows how to screenshot that one play, I'd appreciate you putting it up.
Any numberage used to describe this defense is moot.

Bennett, Guy and Wise can all be interior or edge players.
Winovich, Simon, Hightower and VanNoy can all be linebackers or edge rushers.

It's totally feasible that we see the team line up all kinds of wachy sets: Hightower in the interior, Chung at LB, VanNoy in coverage, McCourty rushing the passer...when given the right pieces, Bill Belichick does what Bill Belichick wants.

The Patriots have no defined defensive system anymore. The system is simply the best 11 players given the matchup and situation.
 
Any numberage used to describe this defense is moot.

Bennett, Guy and Wise can all be interior or edge players.
Winovich, Simon, Hightower and VanNoy can all be linebackers or edge rushers.

It's totally feasible that we see the team line up all kinds of wachy sets: Hightower in the interior, Chung at LB, VanNoy in coverage, McCourty rushing the passer...when given the right pieces, Bill Belichick does what Bill Belichick wants.

The Patriots have no defined defensive system anymore. The system is simply the best 11 players given the matchup and situation.

This post needs to be made a sticky.
 
Seen reports or that's just the vibe you're getting?

Hasn't flashed and he just got hurt again. He left the locker room before the media was allowed in which points to a serious injury.
 
I don't want to start a 4 page slap fest but you can change the verbiage all you want, but that was 6 men on the LOS covering each OLman except the C and one middle LB. It couldn't be clearer, and I can't figure out why you can't or won't admit it.

Just because KVN is a LB on the scorecard, doesn't mean he can't align in a 6-1. Chung wasn't "in the box", he was lined ON the LOS next to a DLman. Just for once admit it, man. I've been wrong lots of time. I promise you won't die if you do. ;)

BTW- if anyone knows how to screenshot that one play, I'd appreciate you putting it up.
Corners line up on the los in bump and run does that make them DLs?

I would gladly admit I am wrong if I was.
Chung is not a DL. In fact his first move was to drop in coverage.
Kvn played on the los as a lb. happens all the time.

There are not 6 DL on the field.
 
I’m going to have to agree here. He hasn’t done much of note in the regular season games he’s been active in and has dealt with injuries since being active. Combine that with the depth at the position and he’s an obvious candidate to get the axe during final cut downs.
Rivers has only played 78 reg season snaps and had 1 sack.
I don’t think there are enough snaps there to evaluate him, but the more crushing blow to his chances would be that he didn’t earn more than 78 snaps.
 
Corners line up on the los in bump and run does that make them DLs?

I would gladly admit I am wrong if I was.
Chung is not a DL. In fact his first move was to drop in coverage.
Kvn played on the los as a lb. happens all the time.

There are not 6 DL on the field.
Look at the F*cking picture. you... (so close to adding several adjectives to that sentence that I would regret later, and have to abjectly apologize for.)

You do NOT have to have 6 DLmen on the field for it to be a 6-1. GOD! you are impossible to have a reasonable discussion with. I give up. Please don't respond, or expect a response if you still want to call what is CLEARLY standing in front of you.

BTW- This from our knowledgeable friends at Pats Pulpit in the Superbowl analysis. It was the first of SEVERAL listings when I googled "Patriots using a 6-1 in the Superbowl"

1. Patriots Fronts vs Rams Run game
The Patriots employed a 6-1 even front, with 4 down linemen, two outside linebackers, and one middle linebacker on almost every first and second down play. The defensive linemen group varied, but Van Noy and Chung played as the OLBs and Hightower played as the MLB on every snap, until Chung went down. Then, Hightower took his place, and Elandon Roberts stepped in as the Middle Linebacker.
 
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Look at the F*cking picture. you... (so close to adding several adjectives to that sentence that I would regret later, and have to abjectly apologize for.)

You do NOT have to have 6 DLmen on the field for it to be a 6-1. GOD! you are impossible to have a reasonable discussion with. I give up. Please don't respond, or expect a response if you still want to call what is CLEARLY standing in front of you.

BTW- This from our knowledgeable friends at Pats Pulpit in the Superbowl analysis. It was the first of SEVERAL listings when I googled "Patriots using a 6-1 in the Superbowl"

1. Patriots Fronts vs Rams Run game
The Patriots employed a 6-1 even front, with 4 down linemen, two outside linebackers, and one middle linebacker on almost every first and second down play. The defensive linemen group varied, but Van Noy and Chung played as the OLBs and Hightower played as the MLB on every snap, until Chung went down. Then, Hightower took his place, and Elandon Roberts stepped in as the Middle Linebacker.
Relax. People disagree all the time.
You don’t have to lose it.
A 42 nickel package is what is on the field is it not?
What you quoted literally says 4 dL and 2 lbs.
putting the lb on the los doesn’t make him a dL. Putting a safety up to cover a short zone doesn’t make him a dL.
They didn’t ACT like DL either.

Hey if you want think your semantics are better than my semantics go ahead.

I think we are done here.
 
Relax. People disagree all the time.
You don’t have to lose it.
A 42 nickel package is what is on the field is it not?
What you quoted literally says 4 dL and 2 lbs.
putting the lb on the los doesn’t make him a dL. Putting a safety up to cover a short zone doesn’t make him a dL.
They didn’t ACT like DL either.

Hey if you want think your semantics are better than my semantics go ahead.

I think we are done here.
Yeah, I'd say you were broken up but it's not your first ride on that merry-go-round.
 
Comments:

a.) I think we have the best secondary in the NFL. We have at least one all pro corner....then we have a pro bowl caliber safety in DMac...Chung is great against TE's...then the other corner slot is competitive between Jackson/JMac. Then in the slot we have Jon Jones who is likely to command a massive contract in FA this March. I'd put our secondary up against any other team's. Then for depth we have JoeJuan Williams who is a big corner...we likely will use him to match up with huge receivers this season. Harmon is a very good back up safety too. Then we have Crossen who is always competitive...Brooks has looked good too. This secondary is so good that we are likely to cut a 2nd round pick in year 2.

b.) I also think I'd put up our linebacking corps vs. any one else's as well... Hightower is Hightower...a pro bowler when healthy. KVN has been a revelation since coming from Detroit. Then there's Collins who is probably our most athletic defensive player pound for pound, IMO. Then there's Bentley who impressed last pre-season before getting hurt. Then there's the reliable Elandon Roberts (who saved a key breakaway rushing TD in SB 51). Even the Munson kid showed some spunk on Saturday night. Not sure Sam even makes the team this year and King is a core ST'er.

c.) Our D-line isn't anywhere near the best in the league...but it is serviceable and very versatile in that we can move guys inside/outside and I also love our deep DE group this year in Bennett/Wise/Calhoun/Winovich/Simon. Heck, some of our DE's could play OLB as well. Then for the guys in the trenches...we can certainly go to war with Guy plus a combo of: Shelton/Pennel/Butler/Cowart/Parry.

d.) Is our secondary the best it has ever been in the BB era? Rivaling even 2003-2004 when we had Law/Harrison in the secondary? 2014 with Revis/DMac?

e.) How about our LB corps during BB's tenure? Do these guys rival the old days with McGinest/Bruschi/Vrabel/Johnson? Or the Mayo/A.Thomas/Bruschi/Vrabel era of 2007-2009?
 
Like I said the success of this defense will be more about the KIND of players we have as opposed to WHO we have. I hope I can explain the subtle difference in that sentence.

Over the past couple of years Bill has assembled the KIND of players he needed to defend the way the game is played. ANY defense playing an offense under today's rules and the talent they they have out there on a week to week basis will HAVE to lose if they play them in anything close to a straight up defense. That is a defense where the offense knows where everyone is going to line up play to play. (ie 4-3 nickel or base, 3-4 nickel or base, etc. The ONLY way to compete evenly with the way offense is played and the rules is to CONSTANTLY be in some kind of alignment and personnel package that the offense doesn't expect.

Christ Bill played the Rams in a f*ucking 6-1 defense. Do you know that the 6-1 was LONG outdated back when I played HS ball and that's almost 60 years ago. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it. BUT it wasn't what the Rams expected and it worked like a charm.

That's why I kept emphasizing the VERSATILITY aspect of this defense. Week to week it is going to change in BOTH alignments and personnel packages. I know YOU know what that will mean for teams that come to play us. They will have no f*cking idea what they are going to get until they line up for their first series. (sorry I tend to swear when it's late) WHAT an advantage! That far outweighs any talent disadvantage there might be or the fact we don't have any "individual pass rushers of note" Just like in the SB, it will be "collective pressure"

And here's where the depth comes in. Just look at the varies set of skill sets you have so deep on this team. It's for this reason I'm sure we are going to see Williams, Winovich, AND Cowart (sorry Adam Butler) making plays this year. Bill will get them into situational situations where their skill sets create favorable matchups for them.

I can picture a scenario where Williams comes in and shuts down or limits Kelce on passing downs. Cowart blows up OG's that might be vulnerable to power moves, and Winovich can line up all over the DL in week to week match ups that are favorable.

I was very nervous about that first game, even at home. No one in the league has more talent than those choking frauds. But this is the first game of the season, not the last, so my worries are growing, especially with a great OL. But I take solace in knowing that Bill knows the Steeler offense better than Tomlin does. And the difference between Ben's stats on the road as opposed to home are significant. I will be very interested to see what he does that first week and compare it with Miami in the following week.

If it's what I think we will see, we will have pundits sh!tting all over themselves trying to explain exactly what's happening. ;)

I may be mistaken here. So forgive me if I'm wrong. But I think the Patriots are undefeated at home, with Brady, against the Steelers (Including postseason). Furthermore, I think all the wins were by 10 or more. I can't remember a tine where the game was in doubt in the 4th quarter. Maybe 2015?

That said, I do think the Steelers have a better chance of winning the opener vs a game later in the season. The Patriots tend to treat September like it's preseason at times. They experiment alot. Moral of the story is history says the Steelers don't stand a chance at Gillette. But the past is the past.

As for the defense, I have concerns about the pass rush. It's tough to be a truly great defense without disrupting the QB. I'd say the Pats have the potential to be a top 10 defense. We shall see.
 
Relax. People disagree all the time.
You don’t have to lose it.
A 42 nickel package is what is on the field is it not?
What you quoted literally says 4 dL and 2 lbs.
putting the lb on the los doesn’t make him a dL. Putting a safety up to cover a short zone doesn’t make him a dL.
They didn’t ACT like DL either.

Hey if you want think your semantics are better than my semantics go ahead.

I think we are done here.
here is a link (I can do that) to the Pats Pulpit article. Later on in the very detailed piece, he mentioned they used the same aligment 9 times on plays the Rams gained 34 yds.

I could have added several more from other sources but that would be beating a dead horse.

Super Bowl 53: Rams Offense vs Pats Defense

BTW- This is NOT a disagreement about semantics. A fact is a fact. You, my friend are making up an entirely new language if you think this about semantics.

BTW-2 - This is a very good article by the Pats Pulpit people and if you didn't catch it back in February, it is a really good read.
 
I may be mistaken here. So forgive me if I'm wrong. But I think the Patriots are undefeated at home, with Brady, against the Steelers (Including postseason). Furthermore, I think all the wins were by 10 or more. I can't remember a tine where the game was in doubt in the 4th quarter. Maybe 2015?

That said, I do think the Steelers have a better chance of winning the opener vs a game later in the season. The Patriots tend to treat September like it's preseason at times. They experiment alot. Moral of the story is history says the Steelers don't stand a chance at Gillette. But the past is the past.

As for the defense, I have concerns about the pass rush. It's tough to be a truly great defense without disrupting the QB. I'd say the Pats have the potential to be a top 10 defense. We shall see.

Agree. I think our DL will keep us from being a great defense. But, they are very good. They will be good enough to give the team a very good shot at another Lombardi.
 
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I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, and I AM very excited about our defense, but for different reasons. Let's face it, while we all like OUR players, but we also tend to overvalue them as individuals, just like every other fan base. Consider this. The Browns have 3 of their 4 starting DLmen with recent All Pro selections. I think we have one (Bennett), and that was so long ago I can't remember (2014 maybe).

I was watching a couple of preseason games today and it seems like EVERYONE has multiple stars, and EVERYONE's draft picks "look fantastic". So let remember that its preseason and our team usually starts very slowly.

I think we should focus more on what we DO have that is exciting, but unproven. We potentially have a decent DL that is made up of good but not great players who are extremely VERSATILE. We have a very deep LB group that has a make up very much like the DL. And THOSE 2 groups are anchored by the deepest AND most versatile secondary in the league. And guess what, we actually have ONE actual elite player in that group.

So lets get real we have a nice defensive group, but no one outside of NE is drooling over our defensive roster. No DC is game planning to stop ANY of our front 7 like we often have to do. The only great one on one pass rusher we have is 34. :eek: Mr February has never been Mr. September, October, November or December

I love this defense because it fits the times. I love this defense because it is so versatile up front, and so strong in the secondary. I love this defense BECAUSE it doesn't have any stars you have to game plan for. I love this because it was designed and built to be a week to week game plan group. I love it because opposing OC's will never know where "it" is coming from, or what they will expect to see week to week. I love this defense because it has the depth at all three levels to survive the attrition of an NFL season. I love it because of the guy who will be putting it together. I love this defense because the sum of the parts will be greater than the individual parts.

The point being that I'm less interested in the individual pieces (aside from the intellectual part about who will make it and who won't) than I am at what they can POTENTIALLY become as a whole. That is VERY exciting for me.


Let me phrase this question to you, Ken, very carefully:

Given the personnel on this D is more deep than top-heavy/pro-Bowl, (also has more “coaches on the field” than I have seen in a long time) how does your view change when the ingredient adds in that BB has no DC working with them but BB himself. The note by Reiss yesterday in his Sunday notes to the effect that “Throwback Bill” BB seems more animated about the D than during his Giants days made my hair stand on end.
 
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here is a link (I can do that) to the Pats Pulpit article. Later on in the very detailed piece, he mentioned they used the same aligment 9 times on plays the Rams gained 34 yds.

I could have added several more from other sources but that would be beating a dead horse.

Super Bowl 53: Rams Offense vs Pats Defense

BTW- This is NOT a disagreement about semantics. A fact is a fact. You, my friend are making up an entirely new language if you think this about semantics.

BTW-2 - This is a very good article by the Pats Pulpit people and if you didn't catch it back in February, it is a really good read.
Ken we disagree. Aligning 42 nickel personnel with a lb on the los (very common) and a safety up doesnt make it a 6 man DL to me, particularly when you watch them act like a lb and a safety.
Why isn’t a traditional 34 called a 52?
Or a 43 with a lb up on the te called a 52?
Why isn’t a 43 press with corners right up on the line not called a 63?

It’s about players and assignments. A 6-1 would have 6 players acting like DL (they didn’t).
It’s fine if you want to accept Patriot planet as an authority.
It’s fine that we disagree.
When you identify a defense as X-Y-Z my definition is that X players have DL duties, Y players have LB duties and Z players have DB duties.

If you want to use a different criteria than that, go ahead but I disagree.
 
Wise and Rivers have both been massive disappointments. As Round 3 and Round 4 picks I wouldn't know if busts is appropriate as you just hope for serviceable starters at that point, and they are still on the roster, but I'd say they are closer to be labelled JAGs.

There is so much wrong in your post grading Wise and grouping his career to date with Rivers. I dont know where to begin. Were you talking DEATRICH or 1970’s Red Sox Pitcher RICK Wise?
 
The swarming Pats defense will have formidable 6'5 250 QB Cam Newton to chase down this week so it should be a good test.
 
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TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf’s Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/18/24
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