Pats - Titans postgame thread

Elijah said:

If you had suggested a month ago that Pennel would be fighting for a spot on the 53, I'd have reacted the same way as Andy. I had him as my #1 FA target before we got him so of course I had high expectations. However, things do appear to be changing. He really was playing with and against scrubs and didn't even look good there. That much cannot be argued.

That said, we saw Jason McCourty in a similar situation last year and he worked out okay, so Andy isn't completely wrong here.

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Understood, I'm not ready to toss Pennel to the curb. I'm just asking an honest question: this morning Andy has repeatedly, confidently declared Pennel a starter. Why?

I'm ready to be convinced! I'm not here for pissing matches, I actually like it when somebody changes my mind. But I do need evidence, not just declarations that "I'm right so we need not discuss this any longer."

patchick said:

Understood, I'm not ready to toss Pennel to the curb. I'm just asking an honest question: this morning Andy has repeatedly, confidently declared Pennel a starter. Why?

I'm ready to be convinced! I'm not here for pissing matches, I actually like it when somebody changes my mind. But I do need evidence, not just declarations that "I'm right so we need not discuss this any longer."

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I'm not so sure there is a good argument right now for him to be starter.

Good to see Williams doing so well. Hoping this guy put’s a cork in his “ Joe too slow Williams” detractors.

4th round draft choices always stick

DarrylS said:

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The jury is out on Cajuste and Froholt... but they may stick also..

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patchick said:

I think the likeliest example is keeping Cowart over Pennel or Butler. Cowart is very much about potential, IMO.

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EDIT: I was incorrect on Cowart.. He's a DT/DE like Butler..

What's been interesting is that the Pats have been playing with 3 DL as their base in Pre-season moreso than a 4 DL base.

Elijah said:

That said, we saw Jason McCourty in a similar situation last year and he worked out okay, so Andy isn't completely wrong here.

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I never said Andy was completely wrong and Jason McCourty was a completely different situation.

They were trying Jason at a different position. Pennel is still a DT.

IMHO, it just plan wrong to go into the season with a blocking TE as your only TE.

Family said:

I think we got the coaches analysis. Berrios never saw the field again in a game we were short receivers.

My take is the only weakness is swing tackle/OL depth.

The TE position, while not a strength, is OK when you take into consideration our pass catching RB's.

They really only need a blocker at TE. Izzo is a good enough and you still need to cover him.

They can survive four games.

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Family said:

[QUOTE="Elijah, post: 5626859, member: 20125"That said, we saw Jason McCourty in a similar situation last year and he worked out okay, so Andy isn't completely wrong here.

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I never said Andy was completely wrong and Jason McCourty was a completely different situation.

They were trying Jason at a different position. Pennel is still a DT.[/QUOTE]

That's true, it is different in that regard, but we still don't know why he was tried at safety. Even if it's just to build cross depth it still would be unwise to put a core player's health at risk.

Family said:

If Pennel is still one of the starters, he was playing last night when no other starter was, and didn't play early in the game when the few that played were in.

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Coaches could have been sending him a message..

DaBruinz said:

See. I don't see Cowart and Butler playing the same positions. Cowart is more of a NT type DT whereas Butler is more of an UnderTackle or 3-4 DE.

What's been interesting is that the Pats have been playing with 3 DL as their base in Pre-season moreso than a 4 DL base.

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I'm not so sure I agree about Cowart. All the indications I've seen including preseason snaps show he lines up in the G/T area rather than C/G.

mgteich said:

4th round draft choices always stick

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All 4ths made the team. Only 1 4th rounder under BB diddnt last a whole season - Kareem Brown.

mgteich said:

skipper is being coached up for 2020. I doubt very much that he will be the swing OT for Game 1.

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So do you think Thuney would have that role to start the season, or do they go out and find someone by trade or on the 31st?

mgteich said:

IMHO, it just plan wrong to go into the season with a blocking TE as your only TE.

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Tough to argue.

But they way it's shaking out with the rookies and Gordon, it looks fine.

patchick said:

You don't think Butler is ahead of Cowart in terms of readiness? Butler was active in every single game for the past 2 seasons, and if they both ended up on the 53 I'd expect Cowart to be inactive game 1. To me, that fits the definition you asked for: a veteran who could potentially lose his job to a less ready rookie with a higher ceiling.

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I’m saying butler and Cowart are competing for a role straight up.

But what I'm really curious about is your basis for naming Pennel a starter. He's playing 2nd/3rd-string reps in practice, and looked ineffective in the second half last night against the Titans' dregs. I'd love to think I'm wrong about Pennel, though! What am I missing?

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Because he is the best player for the role and how bb uses players in the preseason especially veterans who are new to the team varies from player to player and has never seemed to be a good indication of where they fit.

Family said:

It is uncommon under BB.

It might not be an absolutely definitive every single time, but it's the most reliable indicator, even more than the way we see performance on the field.

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We disagree.

Elijah said:

It might not mean that Pennel is definitely in trouble but I think it does mean BB is trying to figure out what to do with him.

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I don’t think it means much of anything

I would expect to acquire a swing OT. It is valuable roster that is active every week, and an essential one if there is an injury.

patfanken said:

So do you think Thuney would have that role to start the season, or do they go out and find someone by trade or on the 31st?

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DaBruinz said:

See. I don't see Cowart and Butler playing the same positions. Cowart is more of a NT type DT whereas Butler is more of an UnderTackle or 3-4 DE.

What's been interesting is that the Pats have been playing with 3 DL as their base in Pre-season moreso than a 4 DL base.

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Interesting, I see Cowart as very much a 3-4 DE. He's built more like Jarvis Green than Vince Wilfork, and those massive arms seem like great DE assets. If--and I don't necessarily buy this, but IF--they want to play more old-school 3-man fronts, I'd picture Guy/Cowart/Butler on the outside and Shelton/Pennel/Parry at NT.

patchick said:

Understood, I'm not ready to toss Pennel to the curb. I'm just asking an honest question: this morning Andy has repeatedly, confidently declared Pennel a starter. Why?

I'm ready to be convinced! I'm not here for pissing matches, I actually like it when somebody changes my mind. But I do need evidence, not just declarations that "I'm right so we need not discuss this any longer."

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Because it's Andy and he's the kind of Patriot's homers and what he says is gospel even when it's wrong.

One need look no further than his argument with @shmessy regarding the Gordon/Moss comparison. As far as Andy was concerned, facts didn't matter. His opinion was all that mattered.

Most people had Pennel penciled in as the new starting NT when he was signed because neither Brown nor Shelton seemed to be walking through the door.

Pennel seemed to excite at Mini-Camp and OTAs and possibly the first few days of camp.

What we don't seen is what Pennel has been showing coaches. He could be this year's Steve Martin for all we know. He might not have taken well to the coaching. He might have a bad attitude. He might think he can just do his own thing. Another alternative is that the coaches are sending a message to Pennel that he might be a 4 year vet, but that doesn't mean anything if you don't get with the program and putting him out there against 2nd/3rd stringers is their way of sending that message. We just don't know.

Fact is that Pennel is on a 1 year prove it deal and is a rather easy cut for the team if he doesn't make it.

The Pennell thing is really getting curious. He looked impactful during the TC sessions I went to this summer. Yet he's seemed to disappear in the 2 practice games. I didn't know that he even played last night.

Cowart has certainly flashed, but we all don't know whether he's been consistent in doing his job on the rest of the plays he's been in. You'd need an all 22 view to figure that one out. Same thing goes for Pennell and Shelton (and Parry and Thurman for that matter). By all reports Shelton is having a very good camp, but who knows. This will be one of the more interesting cut down days in a while.

BTW- IF BB were to cut some vet, it will usually happen before the 31st in order to allow that vet a better shot a being picked up by another team. That is a courtesy that Bill has often given vets who he respected.