Day 3 Training Camp (Real practice begins)

robertweathers said:

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As in the case with head butts, nobody wins in the argument between Phil Dorsett & Mo Harris.

robertweathers said:

Harris is not a stiff....and he didn't have TB12 throwing to him or BB coaching him either.

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10/124 was in a blowout in week 8 and he went on to catch 7 passes on 18 targets the second half of the season. Unlike dorsett who was playing behind Edelman, Gordon and Hogan with gronk and white also earning targets Harris was competing with a bunch of stuffs for pt and targets and couldn’t get any.
Other than looking good in shorts in OTAs and one game of garbage time there isn’t a lot to be excited about Harris over.
Stiff is pretty accurate at this point. Hopefully he improves.

AndyJohnson said:

10/124 was in a blowout in week 8 and he went on to catch 7 passes on 18 targets the second half of the season. Unlike dorsett who was playing behind Edelman, Gordon and Hogan with gronk and white also earning targets Harris was competing with a bunch of stuffs for pt and targets and couldn’t get any.
Other than looking good in shorts in OTAs and one game of garbage time there isn’t a lot to be excited about Harris over.
Stiff is pretty accurate at this point. Hopefully he improves.

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Dorsett was behind Hogan.

Absorb that.

robertweathers said:

Dorsett was behind Hogan.

Absorb that.

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Look at who Harris was behind.
Hogan was a good player for this team.

AndyJohnson said:

Look at who Harris was behind.
Hogan was a good player for this team.

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Hogan was mediocre last year. He did not have a good year.

One-If-By-Sea said:

Dorsett knows who he is and plays his role

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And has shown he can make plays in that role, in big games, in Dec/Jan. Lastly, when counting injuries, what's the "drop off" measure? If the difference between 3, 4, and 5 is negligible than that too has value in building an entire team.

AndyJohnson said:

Being ranked outside the top 10 in passing yards, because you win, by large margins, and make the other team throw for garbage time yards is kinda like chess when the others are playing checkers.

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All about the precious seconds ticking off the clock...that's the stat that no one tracks - time per play or more so per drive when a team is behind is actually useful information about defensive strategy in execution.

patchick said:

But Harris has clicked from day one, which is rare for vets coming coming to the Pats from a different system. When it happens, it usually leads to very good things.

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Underrated but excellent point...these are the Vrabel, Chung, Ninkovich types who either come to (or return in Chung's case) the team and are such a great system fit that they become mainstays with significant role and impact. I am cautiously optimistic of a similar outcome for Harris.

AndyJohnson said:

You are more impressed with berrios or history than me. His 15 yards was only on 13 returns and 15 ypr in college is not outstanding. His career was just 10.4.
Harry can return punts as well.

I think Belichick disagrees that having Edelman return punts is a bad idea. He is very good at it. He returned 20 punts last year. I think if you told bb that’s 20 too many plays risking injury I think he would say that he would rather eliminate some of the 9 runs and 74 catches rather than take away an opportunity to give him the ball in the open field to run back the kick. I also don’t think bb sees players as China who have to be protected from breaking. He has always used a top wr as his PR. It would have been very easy at some point over the last dozen years to just draft or sign a return specialist.

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I don't pretend to know what Belichick thinks. I do know that at 33, Edelman has taken a tremendous number of big hits. Limiting risk makes sense. Edelman is much more valuable to the team in situations like the KC playoff game and the Super Bowl where he was the key receiver in both scoring drives that clinched those wins in OT and the 4th quarter, respectively.

goheels22002 said:

I don't pretend to know what Belichick thinks. I do know that at 33, Edelman has taken a tremendous number of big hits. Limiting risk makes sense. Edelman is much more valuable to the team in situations like the KC playoff game and the Super Bowl where he was the key receiver in both scoring drives that clinched those wins in OT and the 4th quarter, respectively.

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I just want to add we had Brandon Tate and Bethel Johnson as kick returners neither player was considered close to a number 1 receiver.
But I don't disagree BB will have out there who him and Judge believes gives us the best chance to be successful

Deus Irae said:

Your response makes my point. A guy on the bench has low/no production, and a WR3-WR4 guy starting as the WR2 will likely have inflated production, and you won't be able to make a reasonable analysis of a full season is your stuck with too much of either end of it. And, in this case, we've probably got too much of both.



That depends on multiple unknowns. Some key questions:

1. What level will Harry be at come week 1?
2. Will Gordon be on the 53 come week 1?
3. Will Thomas be ready and on the 53 come week 1?
4. Is Harris just pulling an offseason thing, of has something clicked for him?
5. Will there be a drop off seen in Edelman?

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Those are critical questions this week, especially without a pass catching threat at TE. I think neither Gordon nor Thomas will be on the roster come week 1. Harry will be a stud, but probably not early. I think we're looking at Edelman, Dorsett and Mo Harris as the go-to guys out of the gate. That means there will be receiving opportunities for White, Burkhead, Michel and Damien Harris.

Bottom line is we don't know how this is going to work out, but at any time, Brady will have guys on the field he trusts and some new guys who need to earn that trust.

goheels22002 said:

I don't pretend to know what Belichick thinks. I do know that at 33, Edelman has taken a tremendous number of big hits. Limiting risk makes sense. Edelman is much more valuable to the team in situations like the KC playoff game and the Super Bowl where he was the key receiver in both scoring drives that clinched those wins in OT and the 4th quarter, respectively.

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I just don’t see Belichicks actions indicating that he thinks that’s a trade off.

robertweathers said:

That's ok. I get it. Dorsett is a decent bench player. His ypc was last of all wr and 2nd to Dwayne Allen for all non RBs. Once a better WR comes along he gets buried and doesn't see the field as he does not play ST.

It seems like people are building him up for more than he is.

Remember Berrios was on IR last year.

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He is built up for more than he is but we did see improvements for him as a player which is a good sign. He is not a guy who was going to tally 500+ yards like a number of people thought last season. And I knew he wouldn’t.

But he is a good #4 option at receiver. I don’t see anyone supplanting him this season, including Berrios. Berrios is an unknown, Dorsett has reliable hands and has experience making a few big catches in the playoffs.

I don’t think he is really on the bubble unless he has an awful camp and preseason.

Tom doesn’t seem to favor him as a target unless he has to (early season and late season when Edelman/Gordon weren’t around). He was pretty clearly better than Hogan who I thought had a really bad season. We’ll see if Brady feeds Dorsett more passes this season.

goheels22002 said:

I don't pretend to know what Belichick thinks. I do know that at 33, Edelman has taken a tremendous number of big hits. Limiting risk makes sense. Edelman is much more valuable to the team in situations like the KC playoff game and the Super Bowl where he was the key receiver in both scoring drives that clinched those wins in OT and the 4th quarter, respectively.

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Which is precisely why I wanted to bring in Adam Humphries. Ugh. That one still stings.

supafly said:

Which is precisely why I wanted to bring in Adam Humphries. Ugh. That one still stings.

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Humphries did not want to come here. They offered him more money than anyone else. What should they have done more?

Minitron said:

Humphries did not want to come here. They offered him more money than anyone else. What should they have done more?

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I’m not suggesting that they should’ve done anything differently as much as I’m showing frustration that the deal didn’t come to fruition. Humphries would’ve been a great player to take the bulk of the hits via the slot, while also helping to prolong Edelman’s career. It would have been a nice pairing.

If there were a hypothetical answer to your question though, I suppose that they underbid in the beginning and then attempted to correct the situation by offering more money once Humphries had already agreed with TEN. If you don’t care for the specific example of Humphries, look no further than missing out on Andy Isabella in the draft. While I’m certainly not here to try and place blame on a group of masterminds, this is another example where they either seemed to misread the market a bit, or they just didn’t prioritize it as highly as some fans did.

robertweathers said:

Dorsett was behind Hogan.

Absorb that.

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A Hogan that fell off a cliff last year. And I like Dorsett (shows up when his number is called). But he is what he is, a decent wr 3/4. Thing is, that’s about where Mo Harris is as well. Hoping Harry turns into our next wr1.

Kdo5 said:

He is built up for more than he is but we did see improvements for him as a player which is a good sign. He is not a guy who was going to tally 500+ yards like a number of people thought last season. And I knew he wouldn’t.

But he is a good #4 option at receiver. I don’t see anyone supplanting him this season, including Berrios. Berrios is an unknown, Dorsett has reliable hands and has experience making a few big catches in the playoffs.

I don’t think he is really on the bubble unless he has an awful camp and preseason.

Tom doesn’t seem to favor him as a target unless he has to (early season and late season when Edelman/Gordon weren’t around). He was pretty clearly better than Hogan who I thought had a really bad season. We’ll see if Brady feeds Dorsett more passes this season.

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I think he'll be traded.

Ras-IR Dowling said:

A Hogan that fell off a cliff last year. And I like Dorsett (shows up when his number is called). But he is what he is, a decent wr 3/4. Thing is, that’s about where Mo Harris is as well. Hoping Harry turns into our next wr1.

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If all goes well, Harry is #1 in 2020

robertweathers said:

If all goes well, Harry is #1 in 2020

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I'm not giving up on Gordon