Day 3 Training Camp (Real practice begins)

Deus Irae said:

Harris is older than Dorsett, and Dorsett has been the better player to this point in their respective careers. So, I'm not sure how we're defining "fair", here, and I'm not saying that there's no way that Harris can ever possibly be better than Dorsett but, so far, there is nothing that would indicate that Harris has a higher upside than Dorsett.

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Harris was born in November 92 and Dorsett - January 93..... so this age difference is worth pointing out? Really???

Except for flashes neither has had more than a marginal career, but Dorsett has spent two years catching from Tom Brady averaging less than 250 yards receiving a season. Harris has been stuck in a mess at Washington and had more yards last year than any Dorsett season with Brady , but this doesn't mean anything either.

My statement was "it's fair for some posters to believe there is more upside to Harris." Why would it not be fair for a poster to believe Harris was better, if someone saw something in his game? Is Dorsett that good to you?

Where did I ever say I've seen anything to indicate Harris has more upside, other than it was fair for someone else to have seen something in his game. Maybe posters are looking at the fact that every chance the Pats have had so far to promote Dorsett, the team has drifted back to another option.

Has Dorsett been so much a superior player to this point in their respective careers that you refuse to accept this a fair belief for someone else to have?

robertweathers said:

Dorsett is fine. However if he's on the 2019 roster and playing 50 snaps a game that means none of the kids stepped up and Josh and DT stayed on the shelf. I don't think anyone wants that.

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Does it matter if he gets 50 snaps a game if the Offense is getting 100???

DaBruinz said:

Does it matter if he gets 50 snaps a game if the Offense is getting 100???

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I dont think that is realistic.

DaBruinz said:

Gotta love when Andy runs his mouth and ignores players like James White and Sony Michel. RBs out of the backfield have always been an issue for Pittsburgh in the passing game.

Talk about making a load of assumptions there, Andy.

As for the report about Edelman. Guess you missed that Sterling Shepard of the Giants just broke his thumb. They said he'd be out 2 weeks. So, the idea that Edelman being out 3 weeks isn't that far fetched. Furthermore, Andy, we know he didn't have surgery. Even with the Dome of Silence that hovers over Foxboro, news like that gets out.

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I disagree with you that WRs and TEs are irrelevant. We can leave it at that.

I disagree that every player with a broken thumb has exactly the same injury, mostly because there are numerous different types of broken thumbs to different areas of the thumb. I’ll leave it at that.

Otherwise thanks for sharing.

maust1013 said:

"Older" in this case being literally less than 2 months older
Dorsett has had Andrew Luck and Tom Brady as his QB's. Harris has had Cousins, Smith, Josh Johnson and Sanchez. It is 'fair' to say under excellent circumstance Dorsett has been at best average, he is what he is. Under less than good circumstances Harris has been average, it is fair to say under excellent circumstances he may have a higher upside.

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This, plus the simple fact that Harris has been impressively, consistently productive throughout OTAs and now the start of TC. Obviously, practice isn't games. But Harris has clicked from day one, which is rare for vets coming coming to the Pats from a different system. When it happens, it usually leads to very good things.

At this super early point, Dorsett is absolutely on my roster but Harris is ahead of him on the depth chart.

robertweathers said:

That's ok. I get it. Dorsett is a decent bench player. His ypc was last of all wr and 2nd to Dwayne Allen for all non RBs. Once a better WR comes along he gets buried and doesn't see the field as he does not play ST.

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Fuzzy math. We know that ypc is a function of usage. We also know that 3 catches isn’t a reasonable sample size.
Dorsett caught 76% of his targets. He wouldn’t catch 76% of his targets running the routes Gordon did his ypc would be an awful lot higher.

It seems like people are building him up for more than he is.

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He is a guy who can help the team who you wouldn’t want as one of your top 3 WRs ideally but who can step into those roles and have 5 catch games, and be the guy who catches your only 2 postseason td passes.
He certainly isn’t being built up to call him a reliable player in our system who has Brady’s trust, who is a better option that players who have never played in the league and very likely never will.

Remember Berrios was on IR last year.

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At cutdown and it was obvious he wasn’t making the team.

robertweathers said:

Dorsett is fine. However if he's on the 2019 roster and playing 50 snaps a game that means none of the kids stepped up and Josh and DT stayed on the shelf. I don't think anyone wants that.

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The kids aren’t stepping up.

AndyJohnson said:

Fuzzy math. We know that ypc is a function of usage. We also know that 3 catches isn’t a reasonable sample size.
Dorsett caught 76% of his targets. He wouldn’t catch 76% of his targets running the routes Gordon did his ypc would be an awful lot higher.


He is a guy who can help the team who you wouldn’t want as one of your top 3 WRs ideally but who can step into those roles and have 5 catch games, and be the guy who catches your only 2 postseason td passes.
He certainly isn’t being built up to call him a reliable player in our system who has Brady’s trust, who is a better option that players who have never played in the league and very likely never will.


At cutdown and it was obvious he wasn’t making the team.

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Dorsett was last in ypc for WRs. That's not good

We agree on his standing with the club....which can be improved.

Berrios showed enough not to get cut but put on IR. If he showes nothing he would have been cut.

AndyJohnson said:

The kids aren’t stepping up.

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Ok.

Your position on Harry is noted

robertweathers said:

Dorsett was last in ypc.

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And first in completion %.

We agree on his standing with the club....which can be improved.

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Not sure how you can improve on reliable player who has Brady’s trust and has proven he can be effective when needed with unknowns who have never played a snap.

Berrios showed enough not to get cut but put on IR. If he showes nothing he would have been cut.

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We’ve never cut a draft pick if we had a way to stash him on IR.

2018 New England Patriots Statistics & Players | Pro-Football-Reference.com

These are the per game receiving averages for the team last year. In Hogan (33 ypg), Gronk (52), and Gordon (65), we lost our #2, #3, and #5 receivers by production. Jules (71) and White (47) rounded out the top five. BTW Dorsett (18) produced about as much as Patterson (16) whom we also lost.

1. Dorsett ain’t it unless he takes a big step up.
2. Even if Harry can equal what Gronk did, we still need to replace what Gordon did.
3. Even if Harris can replace Hogan we still need to replace what Gordon and Gronk did.
4. Jules was good for 70 a game but he’s getting older.
5. LaCosse (17) seems unlikely to be able to replace Gronk.

There are scenarios where none of this is an issue. If Gordon comes back, LaCosse takes a jump up, Harry can approach what Gronk did, and Thomas can still play, then we might not have enough balls to go around. But the other extreme (Jules is out a while, Harry has a steep learning curve, Gordon is gone forever, Thomas is done, LaCosse is Scott Chandler, Watson retires) is in play too.

This unit has taken some big hits. A lot of things need to fall properly for it to shine this year.

robertweathers said:

Ok.

Your position on Harry is noted

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Not referring to him but you knew that.
I’m going to stop here because you aren’t even trying to really discuss this you are trying to win points.

AndyJohnson said:

And first in completion %.


Not sure how you can improve on reliable player who has Brady’s trust and has proven he can be effective when needed with unknowns who have never played a snap.

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You are coming across as afraid of exploring the possibility of upgrading Dorsett. My God. Live a little.

Playmaking. This is why the team drafts new players, Andy. They hope to upgrade the talent.

AndyJohnson said:

We’ve never cut a draft pick if we had a way to stash him on IR.

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What does that mean?

Connor McDemott was cut last year.

KGH the year before.

AndyJohnson said:

Not referring to him but you knew that.
I’m going to stop here because you aren’t even trying to really discuss this you are trying to win points.

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No I don't know that. Your position is WRs who have never played with TB12 are a huge risk. That includes Harry.

You are calling me out for trying to win points in a debate? Dude...

AndyJohnson said:

I disagree with you that WRs and TEs are irrelevant. We can leave it at that.

I disagree that every player with a broken thumb has exactly the same injury, mostly because there are numerous different types of broken thumbs to different areas of the thumb. I’ll leave it at that.

Otherwise thanks for sharing.

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Now youre a thumb doctor.

Did Maroney have bad thumbs?

robertweathers said:

No I don't know that. Your position is WRs who have never played with TB12 are a huge risk. That includes Harry.

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My position is having ONLY WRs and TEs who have never played with Brady is a huge risk.

You are calling me out for trying to win points in a debate? Dude...

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Yes. That’s usually when we disagree. When you make a questionable statement and I try to explain my POV and you act like it’s a debate and won’t move off your obviously shaky ground.

If you really think we should start the season with a receiving corps of:
Injured Edelman
Rookie
2nd year guy who hadn’t played a snap after a shaky camp being picked in the 6th round
UDFA rookie

A group of TEs who have never played with Brady and never done much to speak of a receivers, none of which appear to be even a mediocre nfl starter.

Then it’s better that we just move on.

Did anyone see Gronk out there?

Triumph said:

Now youre a thumb doctor.

Did Maroney have bad thumbs?

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Adults are talking here, go away.

AndyJohnson said:

My position is having ONLY WRs and TEs who have never played with Brady is a huge risk.

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Yes- that is my understanding which includes Harry. Harry is a risk but they'll start the kid off slow and develop him, let him build some confidence, gain the staff's trust and he'll be ok.

AndyJohnson said:

Yes. That’s usually when we disagree. When you make a questionable statement and I try to explain my POV and you act like it’s a debate and won’t move off your obviously shaky ground.

If you really think we should start the season with a receiving corps of:
Injured Edelman
Rookie
2nd year guy who hadn’t played a snap after a shaky camp being picked in the 6th round
UDFA rookie

A group of TEs who have never played with Brady and never done much to speak of a receivers, none of which appear to be even a mediocre nfl starter.

Then it’s better that we just move on.

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The beginning of the regular season is an extension of TC anyways. You know that.

My position is BB keeps the WRs who offer the most value to the club (playmaking, run blocking, special teams). If Dorsett is on the roster, so be it. I think they have the players in camp who have a chance in bringing more overall value than Dorsett.

Keep in mind the running game is a major part of this offense now.

You don't have Mo Harris on your list. He is on mine.

Edelman
Henry
Harris
Berrios
Meyers

If Josh comes back, Meyers is cut/ PS
If Josh is out for 2019 and DT comes back then you will see Meyers gone or either Berrios (of he is not PR/KR) or Harris go...

AndyJohnson said:

Adults are talking here, go away.

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When Brisset was traded for Dorsett you told us that Dorsett was a real player. You were wrong and I told you that he was nothing special.

Dorsett is not a top 3 WR on the depth chart - Andy Johnson 2019