Well it's official: Tom Brady, #1 Quarterback in NFL History

jimnance said:

No Russell faced tougher competition than MJ.
As someone else pointed out, fewer teams mean more quality players per team.
The more teams there are,the more watered-down the talent becomes. That's true for every team sport.
The Russell-era Celtics never or rarely were the most talented team. They played against the original superteams in Philly and LA.
The C's were mostly a collection of very good role-players, not unlike a lot of BB/TB era Pats' teams.
That Lakers squad with Wilt, West,Baylor,Goodrich etc is still the greatest collection of NBA talent on one team.More than any GS squad. Russell destroyed them.
I lean towards MJ as the goat but Russell is clearly#2 and hes WAY ahead of whoever is #3.

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Most certainly Kareem Abdul-Jabar, who I think belongs with Russell and Jordan in the GOAT discussion.

6X champion
6x MVP
19x (!) all-star

Not that all-star appearances should decide the debate, but consider his greatness over such a long period. First championship was 1971; last one was 1988!

patsfan13 said:

Many of the HOF players got there BECAUSE of Russell. The talent was far more concentrated not diluted. Russell dominated from day 1, Jordan had to wait for the Celtic, Laker and Piston teams to age.

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I don't want to be too critical of the anti-Russell fans because most of them never saw him play. As we know he was 6'9" and @SammyBlueCat quick.

Amazing that he was able to finally accomplish this in the offseason.

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You’re proving my point. Russell was dominant because he was great AND also was one of the biggest guys in the league. There were only a couple dozen teams back then! Jordan was a guard who dominated

patsfan13 said:

Many of the HOF players got there BECAUSE of Russell. The talent was far more concentrated not diluted. Russell dominated from day 1, Jordan had to wait for the Celtic, Laker and Piston teams to age.

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UptownPatsFan said:

Fair point...BUT he was a SG going against dynastic teams/players. He also changed the game in that he became the first guard that DOMINATED the league in a time when it was damn near impossible to win a championship without a dominant big man WHILE HE HIMSELF did not have a dominant big man. EVER. He also played in the era with the most dominant big men in NBA history (minus Wilt/Russell). Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Kareem, Parrish, McHale, Duncan, Robinson, Mourning, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Walton, Garnett, Rodman, (end of career), Terry Cummings, Horace Grant, Otis Thorpe, Nance, C-Webb, Mutumbo, Sabonis, McAdoo, Gilmore, Ralph Sampson, Bill Laimbeer, Jack Sikma, Daughterty, Mark Eaton, Daryl Dawkins, Rick Smits, Dan Issel, Sam Perkins, Jermaine O’Neal etc etc etc..... he also made the game international.

Most importantly..
Michael Jordan played in a more competitive league. People forget that when Bill Russell, whom I greatly respect, was playing in the NBA, there were between 8–14 teams. The Boston Celtics got the lion's share of the talent and Russell played with more fellow hall of famers than any other player of his caliber at the time. Bill was a hell of a player though!!!
Arguably the best defender of all time along with Dennis Rodman.
But yeah, Jordan is the GOAT.

With that being said, what Russell had to endure being an African American (like myself) during those times AND winning in dominant fashion is what makes him arguably the GOAT. I really have no issue with him being labeled the GOAT; I just personally believe that title belongs to MJ. To each his own..

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AndyJohnson said:

In a league with 8-10 teams with about 30 players on a team and 2 way football.

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I guess we disagree AJ, but I don't think it's fair to undervalue players and records just because they happened a long time ago in a different era.

I think it's a stronger argument that statistics today are inflated by comparison due to expansion and exponentially better treatment of pro athletes.

I know that Bobby Orr's statistics were very likely aided by the former, but salaries and medical treatment were definitely vastly better in Wayne Gretzky's time right afterward.

jimnance said:

There are only 2 guys in the NBA goat conversation and that's the overwhelming consensus of former players,coaches media and experts:
MJ and Russell. Period. Lot of legit arguments over the next 4or 5 guys since Kobe and LeBron have joined the discussion along with Magic, Bird, Kareem,Big O,Wilt and Olajuwan.(not in order). All those guys have strong cases.
But 1 and 2 are in a class by themselves.

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I can quickly name ten guys better than MJ whom I would pick before him to start a team.

Actual Pats Fan said:

I guess we disagree AJ, but I don't think it's fair to undervalue players and records just because they happened a long time ago in a different era.

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Which is absolutely not what I did.

I think it's a stronger argument that statistics today are inflated by comparison due to expansion and exponentially better treatment of pro athletes.

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You cited “leading the league”. The size of the league is substantial to that point.
You cited passing, punting and interceptions as if it made him a better player to do all
3 when for the vast majority of nfl history no one does. Anachronism isn’t greatness.

I know that Bobby Orr's statistics were very likely aided by the former, but salaries and medical treatment were definitely vastly better in Wayne Gretzky's time right afterward.

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This has nothing at all to do with my point.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

All I know is that my father in-law in 75 and a huge sports fan. Ironically he likes the Lakers and Yankees, but I love the guy. He’s actually been alive for all this and followed it all. A few years ago, I said rather casually that Jordan was the GOAT, and he basically laughed. He said Russell was the best basketball player who ever lived, and this is coming from a bitter rival. He said it wasn’t even close, as you’ve stated.

I think it’s is certainly closer than that because Russell played my in the pre-expansion era. However, I think it’s a very reasonable argument that Russell is indeed the GOAT. He’s almost an inconvenient factor who needs to be discounted when the GOAT discussions take place because if you factor in championships (like Jordan having six) and take it to the logical next step, Russell obliterates the debate.

I think Russell, Kareem, and Jordan are top 3 in some order. Next tier is LeBron, Magic, and maybe Bird, Robertson and Chamberlain. Olajuwon and Shaq would round out top 10. I feel like I’m missing someone in here. Kobe would definitely be 11...not hating on that dude’s game.

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Thirty years from now, they'll be saying the same things about Tom.

Inconvenient. Just like Russ.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Yeah, Bird is a Boston legend and certainly deserves to the mentioned when talking about the greatest players ever, but it’s absurd to say he’s the GOAT.

The thing is, you look at someone like Bird (3x champion) and other local legends like that, and someone like that should be ranked above Manning for his sport and league. Bird is a winner and, even if he wasn’t the GOAT, is a legend. People don’t really care if he’s the GOAT against others because he’s a city legend and ultimate winner. Manning? Do people in Indy or Denver even look back fondly on him? Seems more like regret, blaming, and disappointment. But, yeah, he’s the third greatest ever...lol

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If Magic had gone to Boston, we might have won one title.

Had Bird gone to the Lakers, you're looking at least seven titles, maybe ten.

Always bugs me when peeps don't put enough respect on MJ's D.

Forget about what he did on the offensive end.

23 was a top 10 all time defender. Defense is an afterthought in today's game, esp on the ball D. 23 along w maybe the best defender of all time Pippen was a beast on that end of the court.

Those Bulls teams were absolute terrors in terms of defense. Pip, MJ, Rodman, Harper, Grant, Brown etc were all great defenders. Man Ron Harper was a such a beast.

At times MJ would literally be the only offensive threat on the court for Chi.

KontradictioN said:

Getting very tempted to start talking about Rodgers and trigger people.

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I’m all fuggn triggered...let’s argue!

Actually Russell played against a great number of very good big men, many of whom were bigger than Bill Russell. Chamberlin, Nate Thurmond, Zelmo Beatty, Walt Bellamy, Willis Reed, Wayne Embry. So Bussel was playing against a HOF Center 2/3 of the games he played in a year.

One-Be-Lo said:

Top 25 quarterbacks of all time: Patriots' Tom Brady leads list



Top 3
#1 Brady
#2 Montana
#3 Manning

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I’m glad your thread title didn’t say “Welp” rather than “Well”.

I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve had to correct people that actually used that non-word in spoken conversation.

Regarding Brady as the GOAT...everyone knows

Actual Pats Fan said:

Thirty years from now, they'll be saying the same things about Tom.

Inconvenient. Just like Russ.

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I don’t think so. Montana was regarded as the GOAT for 20+ years after his retirement and would have remained there if it weren’t for Brady. Unless there’s massive expansion, like the NFL having 64 teams across the globe, Brady is the GOAT unless someone wins a heck of a lot championships. Brady’s stats will one day look unimpressive, just as every generation is statistically outdone by the next one one, but 30 playoff wins, nine conference championships, and six Super Bowls....safe to say someone would need to have a nearly impossibly good career to surpass him.

Is Russell Wilson actually one of the 20 greatest QB of all time? He's really good, consistently among the best, no denying that, but the guy has no MVPs, no All-Pros, not even SB MVP. If we are only comparing careers, he's not better than Ben Roethlisberger but he's ranked 1 spot ahead of him. I don't think Russell Wilson is the 18th greatest QB of all time, not yet.

UptownPatsFan said:

Fair point...BUT he was a SG going against dynastic teams/players. He also changed the game in that he became the first guard that DOMINATED the league in a time when it was damn near impossible to win a championship without a dominant big man WHILE HE HIMSELF did not have a dominant big man. EVER. He also played in the era with the most dominant big men in NBA history (minus Wilt/Russell). Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Kareem, Parrish, McHale, Duncan, Robinson, Mourning, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Walton, Garnett, Rodman, (end of career), Terry Cummings, Horace Grant, Otis Thorpe, Nance, C-Webb, Mutumbo, Sabonis, McAdoo, Gilmore, Ralph Sampson, Bill Laimbeer, Jack Sikma, Daughterty, Mark Eaton, Daryl Dawkins, Rick Smits, Dan Issel, Sam Perkins, Jermaine O’Neal etc etc etc..... he also made the game international.

Most importantly..
Michael Jordan played in a more competitive league. People forget that when Bill Russell, whom I greatly respect, was playing in the NBA, there were between 8–14 teams. The Boston Celtics got the lion's share of the talent and Russell played with more fellow hall of famers than any other player of his caliber at the time. Bill was a hell of a player though!!!
Arguably the best defender of all time along with Dennis Rodman.
But yeah, Jordan is the GOAT & it ain’t close.

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Jordan often gets credit for this (He also changed the game in that he became the first guard that DOMINATED the league in a time when it was damn near impossible to win a championship without a dominant big man WHILE HE HIMSELF did not have a dominant big man. EVER. ) but it simply isn't true. Isiah was a guard that led his team to championships before Jordan & beat Jordan while doing it, I'd actually say he could be said as the 1st guard to dominate the league without a great big man seeing as he made 3 straight Finals. Also the Finals immediately before Jordan's 1st Finals was played by 2 guard led teams in Portland & Detroit.

Jordan has such mythology that everything starts to blend together & he is often credited with things that aren't true.

Flash said:

Is Russell Wilson actually one of the 20 greatest QB of all time? He's really good, consistently among the best, no denying that, but the guy has no MVPs, no All-Pros, not even SB MVP. If we are only comparing careers, he's not better than Ben Roethlisberger but he's ranked 1 spot ahead of him. I don't think Russell Wilson is the 18th greatest QB of all time, not yet.

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It’s a laughable ranking. The guy is closer to average than elite. When your offense puts up closer to average ppg than the most ppg, over many seasons, it’s because the QB is closer to average than elite. The Seahawks never have an imposing offense despite having, just like every other team, their share of booms and busts over Wilson’s career. Wilson is truly the most overrated QB in the NFL...elite QB offenses score a lot of points. I don’t care what his passer rating is...he can’t see the field without scrambling and holds the ball way too long, which isn’t calculated into that equation. He is not a top-20 all-time QB, or even close to that ranking.

He does have a low INT rate..I’ll give him credit for that.

Are we talking football or basketball here? Doesn’t matter. Brady is the basketball goat too. He has missed zero shots in his career!

Best 3 QB's I have watched would be Brady, Montana and Staubach. Game always seemed to be in reach and they often came through when the game was biggest and the chips were down.

I have a hard time evaluating modern QBs with the increased efficiency stats and particularly someone like Brees. His stats are spectacular but how much of that was due to playing against prevent defenses when his team was way down? Plus he has probably played more games in a dome or favorable weather conditions than any QB in history. Those favorable conditions also hurt his defense and while his defense has adversely impacted his W/L record it has also allowed/forced him to be in catch up/throw every down mode way more times than someone like Brady. Not surprising that a dome QB whose team has been average several seasons would have such large counting stats. QB rating - Overall 97.7 - Dome - 104.2, outdoors - 91.2. Slight more games played in dome than outdoors. Brady - Overall 97.6 - Dome - 109.0, outdoors 96.9. Only played 14 games in a dome.

There are few independent stats in football unlike baseball. Without context metrics are incredibly deceiving that's why QB wins mean the most to me. How much credit should Brady get on the Super Bowl TD drive where he threw for 67 of the 69 yards gained yet they ran it in from the 2 or the 3 straight TD drives against the Chiefs in the 4th Qtr/OT when they passed for majority of yards yet ran in all 3 TD's? (I'd argue a ton of credit) Has the Pats defense truly been top 10 regularly during Brady's career (as rated by points against) or do they benefit immensely from him and their dominant offense rarely putting them in bad positions? DVOA would argue that they have been closer to average but again that rating lacks context as I'd imagine the Pats give up more garbage time yards and points than just about any team in history (see Chargers playoff game as most recent example)

Manning, Brees, Rogers, Marino are all terrific players but their post season failures drop them down in ratings for me.