You done messed up A-A-Ron

robertweathers said:

Yep just last year.

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Debatable.

With Josh Gordon its fair to give the edge to Brady.

Without Gordon, I think the edge goes to Rodgers.

Note that without Josh Gordon Brady went 6-2.

PFT has another piece on the subject, and I think it's worth reading for more than just the Rodgers discussion. Don't get me wrong, because the Rodgers' portion is worth reading, but there's a little piece of information about the Shanahan system that is worth noting, for those who hadn't heard/read of it before.

The first snippet emerged on Friday, and it wasn’t a great look for a franchise quarterback with a propensity for passive-aggressive commentary. The full story has now landed, and it’s clear that both Packers coach Matt LaFleur and Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers currently don’t see eye-to-eye regarding the issue of audibles, and that they’re not bashful about publicly discussing it...

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Matt LaFleur, Aaron Rodgers know they have to work through “the audible thing”

Nehalem said:

Debatable.

With Josh Gordon its fair to give the edge to Brady.

Without Gordon, I think the edge goes to Rodgers.

Note that without Josh Gordon Brady went 6-2.

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Pats scored 27ppg and GB scored 23.5ppg

Adams is the best player but after that its NE on the o-line, RB, TE and WR

Deus Irae said:

PFT has another piece on the subject, and I think it's worth reading for more than just the Rodgers discussion. Don't get me wrong, because the Rodgers' portion is worth reading, but there's a little piece of information about the Shanahan system that is worth noting, for those who hadn't heard/read of it before.



Matt LaFleur, Aaron Rodgers know they have to work through “the audible thing”

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Jesus.

LaFleur, meanwhile, is slowly deciphering Rodgers' dry and caustic sense of humor.

"It's coming along," Rodgers said. "I don't think he quite understands that sometimes I'll make jokes that are kind of on the level where I don't care if somebody gets them or not. I'll kind of let things sit. And he's sometimes, 'What? Huh? What was that?' We're figuring each other out right now."

robertweathers said:

Pats scored 27ppg and GB scored 23.5ppg

Adams is the best player but after that its NE on the o-line, RB, TE and WR

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Of course the Pats scored more. They had Brady.

I am not sure I would rate Chris Hogan, Dorsett, and Patterson as better than any group of WR.

Elijah said:

Stuff like this has been circulating for years and yet Pack fans go to the craziest extents to discredit the same players they were rooting for a few years prior.

It's crazy that they can't just accept the situation at face value. They have a HOF QB who's:

a) Not the GOAT
b) Kind of a jerk
c) Not particularly concerned with winning

That's still more to feel good about than most fanbases.

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5 years ago if you compared Rodgers to Roethlisberger people would laugh their heads off. Now the comparison looks pretty apt. Rodgers is probably more talented on paper than Big Ben, but their career tracks are pretty similar.

Simpelton said:

5 years ago if you compared Rodgers to Roethlisberger people would laugh their heads off. Now the comparison looks pretty apt. Rodgers is probably more talented on paper than Big Ben, but their career tracks are pretty similar.

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I’m laughing my head off. Rodgers isn’t a perfect QB. He’s far superior to Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger is an even worse locker guy and he’s very stupid.

Nehalem said:

Of course the Pats scored more. They had Brady.

I am not sure I would rate Chris Hogan, Dorsett, and Patterson as better than any group of WR.

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If you take away Adams's catches, TDs, and yards (he led GB in all 3) and from NE you take away White catches, Jules yards and White TDs Pats "best of the rest" had more receptions (291 v 281) yards (3555 v 3243) and TDs (22 v 12) than GBs best of the rest and GB threw the ball more while NE ran it 140 more times than GB.

If you want to argue talent, fine. I'm going by production...

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

I’m laughing my head off. Rodgers isn’t a perfect QB. He’s far superior to Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger is an even worse locker guy and he’s very stupid.

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The claim that Rodgers is far superior to Roethlisberger is a dubious one, IMO.

• 
  
• Roethlisberger has led the Steelers to 3 Super Bowls, and won 2.
  
• Rodgers has led his Packers to 1 Super Bowl, and won that 1.
• Roethlisberger has had to get to those SBs by going through the Brady/Peyton conference
  
• Both QBs have been coached by guys who are second tier type coaches.
• Both QBs are on teams that generally eschew the big free agent moves in favor of home grown talent.
• Both QBs are on teams that have been hit or miss with regards to talent discovery and development in the past decade.
• Both QBs have played with top level WR talent for much of their careers.
• Both QBs have had long stretches of their career where they've played behind lousy OLs.
• Roethlisberger does had a 4 year edge in playing as the starter.

If I were ranking the QBs in the Peyton+ era, based upon the entirety of their careers to date, I'd go something like this:

Brady
Peyton
Rodgers
Brees/Roethlisberger/Warner


I would say that there's a big drop from 1 to 2 and a big drop from 2 to 3, followed by a smaller drop from 3 to the logjam at 4-6.

Just my take, based upon careers to date.

Nehalem said:

Of course the Pats scored more. They had Brady.

I am not sure I would rate Chris Hogan, Dorsett, and Patterson as better than any group of WR.

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The Packers have 2 stars on offense besides Rodgers but overall his supporting cast isn't good.

Nehalem said:

Of course the Pats scored more. They had Brady.

I am not sure I would rate Chris Hogan, Dorsett, and Patterson as better than any group of WR.

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The actual numbers disagree with your 'rating' system.

Nehalem said:

Of course the Pats scored more. They had Brady.

I am not sure I would rate Chris Hogan, Dorsett, and Patterson as better than any group of WR.

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Hogan and Dorsett were at least proven role players in the league. Patterson was more of a utility guy but at least has some NFL experience. For half the year Rodgers was throwing to two rookies as his 2nd/3rd receivers.

Deus Irae said:

The claim that Rodgers is far superior to Roethlisberger is a dubious one, IMO.

• 
  
• Roethlisberger has led the Steelers to 3 Super Bowls, and won 2.
  
• Rodgers has led his Packers to 1 Super Bowl, and won that 1.
• Roethlisberger has had to get to those SBs by going through the Brady/Peyton conference
  
• Both QBs have been coached by guys who are second tier type coaches.
• Both QBs are on teams that generally eschew the big free agent moves in favor of home grown talent.
• Both QBs are on teams that have been hit or miss with regards to talent discovery and development in the past decade.
• Both QBs have played with top level WR talent for much of their careers.
• Both QBs have had long stretches of their career where they've played behind lousy OLs.
• Roethlisberger does had a 4 year edge in playing as the starter.

If I were ranking the QBs in the Peyton+ era, based upon the entirety of their careers to date, I'd go something like this:

Brady
Peyton
Rodgers
Brees/Roethlisberger/Warner


I would say that there's a big drop from 1 to 2 and a big drop from 2 to 3, followed by a smaller drop from 3 to the logjam at 4-6.

Just my take, based upon careers to date.

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For nearly a decade, Rodgers is a 2x MVP and regarded as a top-2/3 QB by almost every peer, pundit, and player. Roethlsiberger has never been an all-pro or even in the MVP discussion. They aren't in the same tier.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

For nearly a decade, Rodgers is a 2x MVP and regarded as a top-2/3 QB by almost every peer, pundit, and player. Roethlsiberger has never been an all-pro or even in the MVP discussion. They aren't in the same tier.

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Manning has 5 MVPs to Brady's 3, and Drew Brees also has never won an MVP, while Cam Newton and Matt Ryan have each won it. With regards to All Pro, Manning was first team 7 times, and Brady has only been first team thrice. So, with regards to this, I'm going to go with "Your chosen options for evaluation don't match mine." and leave it at that.

Deus Irae said:

Manning has 5 MVPs to Brady's 3, and Drew Brees also has never won an MVP, while Cam Newton and Matt Ryan have each won it. So, with regards to this, I'm going to go with "Your chosen option for evaluation doesn't match with mine." and leave it at that.

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Being in the MVP/best QB discussion year after year is different from just ranking QBs based solely on the number of MVPs they have. You know I’m not reducing this argument to MVP wins. One player is universally considered elite; the other is second tier.

Rodgers is perennially ranked by players on the NFL Top 100 in the top 10 and usually closer to 5. Roethlisberger has been 41, 30, 61, 31, 26, 21, 22, 18. Come on Deus, you can’t seriously compare the two.

LaFleur is in a tough spot. Players that have won at least one Super Bowl don’t respect coaches that haven’t done jack s***.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Being in the MVP/best QB discussion year after year is different from just ranking QBs based solely on the number of MVPs they have. You know I’m reducing this argument to MVP wins. One player is universally considered elite; the other is second tier.

Rodgers is perennially ranked by players on the NFL Top 100 in the top 10 and usually closer to 5. Roethlisberger has been 41, 30, 61, 31, 26, 21, 22, 18. Come on Deus, you can’t seriously compare the two.

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I reject your argument about MVPs. It's a terrible argument, except when it's used in conjunction with all sorts of other information. I mean, I could just fall back on "Roethlisberger is one of only 11 QBs to ever throw for 5,000 yards, and Rodgers has never done it", or "Roethlisberger is #7 and #13 in yards passed for in a single season, while Rodgers' best is just #44". But the MVP argument and the passing yards argument mean basically the same thing, which is "not very much as a single bit of data when you're actually comparing players at the position".

The only 2 QBs in the P. Manning + era who have separated themselves from the other elite QBs are Brady and Manning, with Brady way ahead of Manning and Manning way ahead of everyone else. The others (Rodgers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Warner) are all a step below, with none of them having clearly distanced himself from the others, for various reasons.

And, while I would have Rodgers above Roethlisberger, I wouldn't consider the difference to be anything crazy, as Rodgers, for all his raw talent, is overrated as an overall QB, much as Peyton was during his career.

Deus Irae said:

I reject your argument about MVPs. It's a terrible argument. I mean, I could just fall back on "Roethlisberger is one of only 11 QBs to ever throw for 5,000 yards, and Rodgers has never done it", or "Roethlisberger is #7 and #13 in yards passed for in a single season, while Rodgers' best is just #44". But the MVP argument and the passing yards argument mean basically the same thing, which is "not very much when you're actually comparing players at the position".

The only 2 QBs in the P. Manning + era who have separated themselves from the other elite QBs are Brady and Manning, with Brady way ahead of Manning and Manning way ahead of everyone else. The others (Rodgers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Warner) are all a step below, with none of them having clearly distanced himself from the others, for various reasons.

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If you want to hold firm that Roethlisberger and Rodgers have a similar standing, be my guest. It’s ridiculous for self-evident reasons. I don’t even think most Steeler homers would get on board with this.

I put this in as an edit, Ice, but I think you posted before it went through, so I'm posting it separately:

And, while I would have Rodgers above Roethlisberger, I wouldn't consider the difference to be anything crazy, as Rodgers, for all his raw talent, is overrated as an overall QB, much as Peyton was during his career.

Deus Irae said:

I put this in as an edit, Ice, but I think you posted before it went through, so I'm posting it separately:

And, while I would have Rodgers above Roethlisberger, I wouldn't consider the difference to be anything crazy, as Rodgers, for all his raw talent, is overrated as an overall QB, much as Peyton was during his career.

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I think that’s a reasonable take. I also agree that Rodgers is overrated. He is nowhere near Brady and behind Manning too. Rodgers would probably not be All NFL 2010s second team, or he’s just another one of the pack fighting for it. Brees and Wilson are right there with him. And I believe Ryan is at this point equal to, if not better than Rodgers, thought not over the last nine years.