2019 OTAs/Minicamp Thread

RobertWeathers · May 31, 2019

Nunchucks said:
Are you kidding me? The 2011 defense was terrible
2011 Final Stats: Patriots Defense Ranks 31st in the NFL

Basically, they got bailed out by turnovers, which is great. But, they had no business being in the superbowl

Forcing turnovers is part of playing solid defensive football.

There is no question the talent level of those 2010 and 2011 defensive units wasn't even in the same universe as 2003, 2006, 2014, 2016 and even last year's team. They just weren't a stout D on any level but they were effective in some areas.

The 2011 D was in the bottom 1/3rd in every statistical category- except points allowed (11th), points per play (top 10) , red zone % (17th), forced turnovers per game (4th) and sacks (14th).

Other reasons their overall numbers suck is the 2011 offense was ridiculously efficient which put constant pressure on the opposing offense to keep up. I do recall a lot of garbage points in 2010 and 2011 but thats no excuse. Stout defenses don't allow a lot of garbage points. Lastly the 2011 offense was quick strike and was in that constant "hurry up" offense and ran 1,087 offensive plays resulting as #1 in points per minute.

So did the 2010 and 2011 defenses suck? Compared to other teams absolutely but back then considering the style of offense they had they were better than I think what the eye test told us.

They were your classic Bend Don't Break D.

Kontradiction · May 31, 2019

robertweathers said:
Forcing turnovers is part of playing solid defensive football.

There is no question the talent level of those 2010 and 2011 defensive units wasn't even in the same universe as 2003, 2006, 2014, 2016 and even last year's team. They just weren't a stout D on any level but they were effective in some areas.

The 2011 D was in the bottom 1/3rd in every statistical category- except points allowed (11th), points per play (top 10) , red zone % (17th), forced turnovers per game (4th) and sacks (14th).

Other reasons their overall numbers suck is the 2011 offense was ridiculously efficient which put constant pressure on the opposing offense to keep up. I do recall a lot of garbage points in 2010 and 2011 but thats no excuse. Stout defenses don't allow a lot of garbage points. Lastly the 2011 offense was quick strike and was in that constant "hurry up" offense and ran 1,087 offensive plays resulting as #1 in points per minute.

So did the 2010 and 2011 defenses suck? Compared to other teams absolutely but back then considering the style of offense they had they were better than I think what the eye test told us.

They were your classic Bend Don't Break D.

It was your classic garbage defense. You don’t make wholesale changes on that side of the ball beginning that offseason if them sucking a fat one was due to “garbage time” points and our offense being efficient. Six of their seven picks were used on that side of the ball, including two in the first round. They were trash. Bill knew they were trash and he went about fixing it immediately. That’s a big part of the reason why we’ve won three Super Bowls in the last five years.

DaBruinz · May 31, 2019

KontradictioN said:
Yes, it was. If you think it wasn’t, then you’re either kidding yourself, have some early onset dementia, or just don’t know anything about defense. Either way, that defense was terrible. Credit to Bill that he recognized that and went about fixing it with wholesale changes on that side of the ball as early as that offseason.

If by "wholesale changes on that side of the ball" you mean keeping starters Mayo, McCourty, Wilfork, Nikovich, Chung, Spikes, Arrington, while also trying to retain Anderson and Carter (8 of 11) then I might agree with you. A majority of the changes were in the depth positions on defense. Positions that change on a regular basis.

Yes, they drafted Hightower, Chandler Jones and Tavon Wilson but that doesn't account for the "wholesale" claim you've made..

As for using most of the picks on defense, let's review the Patriots offensive side of the ball in that off-season just prior to the draft. The Patriots starting O-line was returning. That they had Ridley, Woodhead, Vereen in the backfield. They had Welker and Edelman and had added Lloyd. And they had their awesome tandem at TE plus Hooman and signed Daniel Fells. So, I would think the focus would be on the defensive side of the ball regardless.

OH.. BTW.. I don't consider a defense that gave up 21 points per game to be terrible in comparison to the rest of the league. It's not a good Belichick defense, but certainly not a terrible one.

SBLIII · May 31, 2019

KontradictioN said:
It was your classic garbage defense. You don’t make wholesale changes on that side of the ball beginning that offseason if them sucking a fat one was due to “garbage time” points and our offense being efficient. Six of their seven picks were used on that side of the ball, including two in the first round. They were trash. Bill knew they were trash and he went about fixing it immediately. That’s a big part of the reason why we’ve won three Super Bowls in the last five years.

That 2011 defense was absolute trash. I don't know how anyone could refute that.

mgteich · May 31, 2019

We have this difference in analysis almost every year. teams like the 2011 patriots and packers allowed lots and lots of yards.
==========
So many fans play fantasy or look at other analyses where points don't count as much as yardage. I have the novel idea that it is points that matter. And yes, many of fans here absolutely hate the idea of "bend and don't break" where a team actually is OK with allowing yards.
==========
1) Consider the top defenses in yards allowed for the season. Are they the top teams?

2) In the 2000 season, the patriots were average in points allowed, about 15th as I recall.

3) Perhaps more importantly, in the last half of 2011, the patriots were in the top 5 in points allowed, or is my memory flawed? Consider this one of the worst defenses ever; whatever floats your boat.

Belichick has a defensive philosophy. He is so crazy as to actually try to give up the fewest points each game, at the end of the season, in the playoffs and int eh Super Bowls. But, others disagree. For them, it is awesome to be in the select group of 5 teams who have allowed the fewest yards over the season.

Nunchucks said:
Are you kidding me? The 2011 defense was terrible
2011 Final Stats: Patriots Defense Ranks 31st in the NFL

Basically, they got bailed out by turnovers, which is great. But, they had no business being in the superbowl

BTTA · May 31, 2019

SBLIII said:
That 2011 defense was absolute trash. I don't know how anyone could refute that.

And yet @DaBruinz did it well in the post just prior to yours.

Kept most of the starters. 21 PPG average. Needed to get younger and faster? Yes. And they did with a couple of draft picks. But not "trash."

RobertWeathers · May 31, 2019

DaBruinz said:
If by "wholesale changes on that side of the ball" you mean keeping starters Mayo, McCourty, Wilfork, Nikovich, Chung, Spikes, Arrington, while also trying to retain Anderson and Carter (8 of 11) then I might agree with you. A majority of the changes were in the depth positions on defense. Positions that change on a regular basis.

Yes, they drafted Hightower, Chandler Jones and Tavon Wilson but that doesn't account for the "wholesale" claim you've made..

As for using most of the picks on defense, let's review the Patriots offensive side of the ball in that off-season just prior to the draft. The Patriots starting O-line was returning. That they had Ridley, Woodhead, Vereen in the backfield. They had Welker and Edelman and had added Lloyd. And they had their awesome tandem at TE plus Hooman and signed Daniel Fells. So, I would think the focus would be on the defensive side of the ball regardless.

OH.. BTW.. I don't consider a defense that gave up 21 points per game to be terrible in comparison to the rest of the league. It's not a good Belichick defense, but certainly not a terrible one.

Agree. They were pretty mediocre but not pathetic.

In actuality the 2012 defense before Talib was acquired was on a worst pace than the 2010 and 2011 defenses.

In 2011 Tampa allowed almost 500 points. That is the definition of trash.

Bill knew he needed to upgrade the talent in the secondary and started that with Talib in November of that year.

Before Talib: 22.3 ppg
After Talib: 18.6ppg

RobertWeathers · May 31, 2019

SBLIII said:
That 2011 defense was absolute trash. I don't know how anyone could refute that.

2011 Tampa Bay allowed 31ppg. Thats trash.

2011 Pats D was very mediocre.

Kontradiction · May 31, 2019

DaBruinz said:
If by "wholesale changes on that side of the ball" you mean keeping starters Mayo, McCourty, Wilfork, Nikovich, Chung, Spikes, Arrington, while also trying to retain Anderson and Carter (8 of 11) then I might agree with you. A majority of the changes were in the depth positions on defense. Positions that change on a regular basis.

Yes, they drafted Hightower, Chandler Jones and Tavon Wilson but that doesn't account for the "wholesale" claim you've made..

As for using most of the picks on defense, let's review the Patriots offensive side of the ball in that off-season just prior to the draft. The Patriots starting O-line was returning. That they had Ridley, Woodhead, Vereen in the backfield. They had Welker and Edelman and had added Lloyd. And they had their awesome tandem at TE plus Hooman and signed Daniel Fells. So, I would think the focus would be on the defensive side of the ball regardless.

OH.. BTW.. I don't consider a defense that gave up 21 points per game to be terrible in comparison to the rest of the league. It's not a good Belichick defense, but certainly not a terrible one.

Two first rounders, a second rounder, six of your first seven picks, trading for Talib, and moving McCourty back to safety are wholesale changes. But you can’t even bring yourself to admit that this was a good defense, as evidenced by your last line. Now all I have to do is chip away at that.

Dan Orlovsky: 30/37 353 yards 2 TDs 1 INT
Chad Henne: 30/49 416 yards 2 TDs 1 INT
Ryan Fitzpatrick 27/40 369 yards 2 TDs 2 INTs
Jason Campbell 25/39 344 yards 1 TD 2 INTs
Vince Young (LMFAO) 26/48 400 yards 1 TD 1 INT
Matt Moore 16/32 281 yards 3 TDs 1 INT
Eli Manning: 30... of 40 296 yards, 1 TD, 103.8 rating, MVP, record set for most consecutive completions to start a game.

This is on top of the small detail that they were the second worst pass defense in NFL HISTORY at the time, only surpassed by that season’s Packers team. The defense was garbage. That they tightened up in the Red Zone when the field got smaller and benefitted from it, thereby helping their PPG rank, doesn’t change that. BB saw it. That’s why he aggressively began to address that side of the ball. Thank God he runs the team. If it had been the homers, nothing would have been addressed. Because the defense was “fine.” How anyone could watch what the defense just did in the Super Bowl, and what they’ve been doing since trading for Talib, and still defend that pile of **** from 2011 is mind boggling.

luuked · May 31, 2019

Nunchucks said:
Right, that is why we saw Edelman playing CB...Patriots have held the season together with smoke and mirrors a number of times.

Instead of trying to move the conversation somewhere else plays tell me who those magical NFL GMs were that had consistently amazing drafts. And by consistent I mean over a period of at least 5-7 years.

Similarly, which teams consistently got out more from their FAs than ours ?

Saying BB/Caserio are among the best in the league doesn't mean their track record is flawless the same way seeing Brady throw an INT doesn't make you question if he is the GOAT. Because he usually does it at a far lower rate than the rest of the league.

luuked · May 31, 2019

SBLIII said:
That 2011 defense was absolute trash. I don't know how anyone could refute that.

Because the world is not black and white. There is room between being elite and absolute trash. For the most part the defense was swinging between above average and below average week to week depending on matchup and game situation.

Dingleberry · May 31, 2019

The 2011 Defense wasn't simply an abomination.

It was the frizzled hair protruding from the infected canker sore growing on the unwashed ass of abomination.

Bend but don't break? It was more bend and grab your ankles.

Zuma · May 31, 2019

OTA Recap: Patriots rooting for the Bruins

captain stone · May 31, 2019

Dingleberry said:
The 2011 Defense wasn't simply an abomination.

It was the frizzled hair protruding from the infected canker sore growing on the unwashed ass of abomination.

Bend but don't break? It was more bend and grab your ankles.

The 2011 Pats season roster:

2011 New England Patriots Roster | The Football Database

The secondary was particularly putrid, perhaps the Worst of any team in a championship game.
They had neither quality nor quantity back there.

Thank Ganja for their INTs (23, including 7 by Arrington), sacks (40) & fumble recoveries.
But when those dried up in the SB...

BradytoMosstoGronk · May 31, 2019

I try not to think about the 2011 defense. 2 opportunities to pound Eli and both times it choked in the 4th (not that the offense did much).

Made bad QBs look good that year. Vince Young 400 yards? Had to have been his career high.

2011 is the measuring stick we use when comparing a less than stellar defensive year.

Patriot Missile · May 31, 2019

To be honest I think the 2011 defense was cringeworthy. I know in the end, it’s points allowed that matter, but that was tough to watch at times. Like many mentioned, they had a good turnover ratio which is what it is.

Thought the dline was pretty good, only 1 LB i trusted in Jerod Mayo. Koutevadies sounded more like a disease than a LB, Gary Guyton? Good heart, played hard, but was just limited on what he could do.

McCourty’s second season, Belichick and Chung didn’t gel yet. Leigh Bodden regressed. Sergio ****ing Brown=Epic fail. Did like Arrington in the slot though.

Combine the Lb’s and the secondary and it explains the many yards given up. Bend don’t break was effective enough to get them there, but it failed in a big game or two or three when the offense couldn’t score enough.

Richard Camembert · Jun 1, 2019

This is great, it really is, lord knows we need more 2011 post mortem, but

Any other news from OTA’s? How did the new rookies look? Any Duke Dawson or Ja’Whaun Bentley or Braxton Berrios news?

patsinthesnow · Jun 1, 2019

The thread is OT as is but just my 2 cents on the 2011 defense:

CB1: Devin McCourty - gave up 1,000 yards in coverage & a 106 passer rating. He just lacked the skillset to play man corner.

CB2/slot: Kyle Arrington - had some opportune INTs but nothing to write home about. Notably benched a few years later in SB49 for getting beat by a bottom of the roster WR.

CB3: Sterling Moore - an UDFA rookie journey man. Worse than JAG Antwaun Molden & Edelman played time at this spot in the playoffs.

S1: Patrick Ching - He’d probably tell you himself that he was a liability as a deep safety. BB admitted to misusing him his first stint here before he later became one of the more underrated players on the second dynasty.

S2: James Ihedigbo - A limited athlete that was mostly known as a ST ace before playing here.

Bonus: Sergio Brown - You could argue he’s the worst DB to ever play significant time on a BB defense.

Say what you want about the 2011 defense as a whole but that secondary would compete for the worst unit in the league today. I’d take J. McCourty, Jones & Jackson over any CB on that team.

scott99 · Jun 3, 2019

Anyone know where the OTA thread is ? That’s what I thought I clicked on.

Ivan · Jun 3, 2019

mgteich said:
We have this difference in analysis almost every year. teams like the 2011 patriots and packers allowed lots and lots of yards.
==========
So many fans play fantasy or look at other analyses where points don't count as much as yardage. I have the novel idea that it is points that matter. And yes, many of fans here absolutely hate the idea of "bend and don't break" where a team actually is OK with allowing yards.
==========
1) Consider the top defenses in yards allowed for the season. Are they the top teams?

2) In the 2000 season, the patriots were average in points allowed, about 15th as I recall.

3) Perhaps more importantly, in the last half of 2011, the patriots were in the top 5 in points allowed, or is my memory flawed? Consider this one of the worst defenses ever; whatever floats your boat.

Belichick has a defensive philosophy. He is so crazy as to actually try to give up the fewest points each game, at the end of the season, in the playoffs and int eh Super Bowls. But, others disagree. For them, it is awesome to be in the select group of 5 teams who have allowed the fewest yards over the season.

What they overlook is that teams that put up a lot of points are usually ahead late and give up tons of garbage yards and points as well.

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