2018 Defense vs 2019 Defense

I have suggested evaluating Dawson in camp and in the preseason.

My point is IFF (if and only if) Dawson is evaluated as having no future, the team might do best to move on. Dawson showed us nothing in 2018 that would lead us to believe that he can contribute.

The situation is different for Wynn. He was evaluated in 2018, and was found worthy of a starting position. One would expect that, even after injury, he would be a contributor, and a likely starter this year or, at worst, next year.

So, we disagree. You seem to be saying that no matter how diminished Dawson's skills are after his injury, we should WANT to have him on the 53. I reject that position. HOWEVER, I do expect him to be on the 53.

AndyJohnson said:

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Take a 7th and move on? Should we do that with Wynn too?

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mgteich said:

I have suggested evaluating Dawson in camp and in the preseason.

My point is IFF (if and only if) Dawson is evaluated as having no future, the team might do best to move on. Dawson showed us nothing in 2018 that would lead us to believe that he can contribute.

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What did you expect him to show while injured?

The situation is different for Wynn. He was evaluated in 2018, and was found worthy of a starting position.

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Huh?

One would expect that, even after injury, he would be a contributor, and a likely starter this year or, at worst, next year.

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Based upon what? He showed no more than Dawson did. I get that most people feel he is a better player but that is y what you are saying. You say he proved it from IR.

So, we disagree. You seem to be saying that no matter how diminished Dawson's skills are after his injury, we should WANT to have him on the 53. I reject that position. HOWEVER, I do expect him to be on the 53.

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When did I say that?
Why would his skills be diminished? He didn’t have a debilitating injury. He is going to be 100%. Yes if he lost a toe or something I’d be concerned.
Not sure about WANT and why you would put it that way. I WANT the best team on the field.

I have no further responses to the position that the coaches believe that Dawson showed as much as Wynn last year.

As I recall, Wynn was ready to start and Dawson was ready to hope that he was active.

AndyJohnson said:

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Based upon what? He showed no more than Dawson did. I get that most people feel he is a better player but that is y what you are saying. You say he proved it from IR.

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mgteich said:

I have no further responses to the position that the coaches believe that Dawson showed as much as Wynn last year.

As I recall, Wynn was ready to start and Dawson was ready to hope that he was active.

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Both were injured. Neither showed anything because they couldn’t.
If you are talking about camp where do you think Wynn was going to start? Who did he beat out?
Dawson was injured all camp so again I’m not sure what you were expecting him to show you from the tub.

mgteich said:

So, you expect to carry 6 corners?

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Well, it all depends on who we're counting among the special team players as DBs, but I think 5 true corners out of the group of Gilmore, JC Jackson, Joejuan Williams as locks with Jason McCourty, Jonathan Jones, Crossen, Dawson and the late round/UDFA rookies competing for spots 4 and 5. Jason McCourty made the play of the game in the Super Bowl breaking up the TD by Cooks in the back of the end zone, but I don't consider him a lock.

One-If-By-Sea said:

BB as HC of the NYJ says Hi.

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True, but I was talking about the Patriots, not the Jets. This scandal does beg the question, did Sciano hand Belichick a napkin with the words "I resign as DC of the NEP" scrawled on it?

goheels22002 said:

True, but I was talking about the Patriots, not the Jets. This scandal does beg the question, did Sciano hand Belichick a napkin with the words "I resign as DC of the NEP" scrawled on it?

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I think it was a paper napkin and I think I found it!

mgteich said:

If Dawson is useless and much worse because of his 2018 injury, keeping him on the roster doesn't in any way prevent "a massive DB hole in 2020". If Dawson is no good, he wouldn't be the solution. All keeping Dawson on the roster does is to move some of his fixed costs to 2020.

The coaches will evaluate him, and decide whether he is even worthy of a few reps in 2019. If so, they might trade Jones.

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It's an interesting year for the Patriots to have an excess of good to great (Gilmore) DBs. There are a bunch high-priced veteran DBs and DLs staring at taking a discounted deal, getting cut outright, or possibly being traded. Belichick has some flexibility after June 1 when the FA trading period is greased by the ability to spread out cap hits of guaranteed money. Jonathan Jones or Crossen would be attractive to a team looking to get out of a more expensive cap hit. That could be helpful with a veteran DL.

One-If-By-Sea said:

I think it was a paper napkin and I think I found it!

View attachment 23382

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I'm sure everyone joins us in wishing @captain stone the very best of luck and success in his new endeavor.

Jason McCourty is indeed a lock. He was guaranteed over $5M in his latest contract. It would cost us more than $1M more to cut him than to have him play. That accounts for 4 corner roster spots.

Jones is by far the best of the rest. He can play slot, safety, and is great on special teams. However, because of Dawson's contract, Dawson is likely to stay. So, we can keep both, or trade one of them.

Crossen would need to win a special team roster spot.

goheels22002 said:

Well, it all depends on who we're counting among the special team players as DBs, but I think 5 true corners out of the group of Gilmore, JC Jackson, Joejuan Williams as locks with Jason McCourty, Jonathan Jones, Crossen, Dawson and the late round/UDFA rookies competing for spots 4 and 5. Jason McCourty made the play of the game in the Super Bowl breaking up the TD by Cooks in the back of the end zone, but I don't consider him a lock.

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With the quality depth on this defense and a bunch of swiss army knife players the term "schematic flexibility" may part of our lexicon come the fall..

From my view the Pats Defense is one of the best on paper that have seen in a while, no one area has any holes..

DarrylS said:

With the quality depth on this defense and a bunch of swiss army knife players the term "schematic flexibility" may part of our lexicon come the fall..

From my view the Pats Defense is one of the best on paper that have seen in a while, no one area has any holes..

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The only area that may concern me would be passrushing, although the additions of Winovich and even Collins may help alleviate that worry.

supafly said:

The only area that may concern me would be passrushing, although the additions of Winovich and even Collins may help alleviate that worry.

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When was the last time that pass rushing didn't concern you? Haven't we ALWAYS needed (actually "wanted") another pass rusher, or a better one?

The patriots pass rush effectiveness comes from having a great secondary, and lots of coverage sacks.

mgteich said:

When was the last time that pass rushing didn't concern you? Haven't we ALWAYS needed (actually "wanted") another pass rusher, or a better one?

The patriots pass rush effectiveness comes from having a great secondary, and lots of coverage sacks.

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Sure, but the comment was in response to another poster stating that he didn’t see any weaknesses. I think the losses of Flowers and Clayborn justify a concern that the passrushing aspect may have taken a hit.

fair enough

Personally, I'm fine with Bennett, Winovich and the extra cap money instead of Flowers and Clayborn.

supafly said:

Sure, but the comment was in response to another poster stating that he didn’t see any weaknesses. I think the losses of Flowers and Clayborn justify a concern that the passrushing aspect may have taken a hit.

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Last year was Beast Mode. This year is Feast Mode.

UptownPatsFan said:

Dawson was a 2nd round draft pick....just last year.

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Dawson like Wynn is basically a Rookie 2019.

PatsFan2 said:

Dawson like Wynn is basically a Rookie 2019.

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Agreed. Which is why Dawson won’t be cut. If anything, he’d be traded.

supafly said:

The only area that may concern me would be passrushing, although the additions of Winovich and even Collins may help alleviate that worry.

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Last year the Defense seemed to have changed and become more aggressive, suspect this is all part of how BB views the game.. not all that concerned about passrushing. BB's Defense has been in a state of flux for a while now, consider how he used to view D backs; Tiquan, "Two way Troy" etc. to what he have seen develop in the past couple of years..

I anticipate the whine of posters who will voice their concerns if we are #28 in yards allowed, but for some reason BB views it differently as to how to accomplish the end and his success is unparalleled..

And yesterday the Pats added Danny Shelton again.. mucho depth.

UptownPatsFan said:

Agreed. Which is why Dawson won’t be cut. If anything, he’d be traded.

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Hard to guess exactly what they’d get for him, though. Belichick would have to sell low, and that wouldn’t really make much sense, either.