Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

PatsWSB47 said:

Andy you were wrong. Doesn't it make you wonder that virtually everyone has interpreted what you vomited non stop for so long pretty much the same way? If we are all wrong then you have to work on your debating skills

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What was I wrong about?

I fully accept the arguments that I did not make, the beliefs I do not have, the conclusions I did not draw that were attributed to me were wrong.
If I said them, I would be wrong. I didn’t say them.

To answer your question, you had a lynch mob against law enforcement and I argued there were no facts available to prove it.
That turned into the lynch mob arguing against a position they attributed to me that I never took. There are no “debating skills” that prevent that.

I guess I could just join the mob mentality and not worry about facts, but that’s not me.

heheheheheh...OK..but...

HUMAN TRAFFICKING!!!!!!!!!!!!![//size=6]

Ring a bell there, Spinny?

IcyPatriot said:

Okay ... so let's get to the next level ...
If there's no evidence of a * ...
... and Kraft was in an otherwise legal establishment.
Goodell cannot possibly suspend him ... probably will but Kraft should fight it if ........

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Evidence doesn't really matter to Goodell. The Elliot suspension made that clear.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

I’m sure they’ll find him guilty, but I do wonder what a normal, fair commissioner would do here.

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IMHO a normal, fair commissioner would realize that, despite the salacious nature of the whole thing, it's a misdemeanor and give the team a small fine.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

There is no evidence that will ever be released.

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You don't know that. Today's ruling - even when upheld - doesn't necessarily mean the video will never be released publicly. First of all, there is the very real possibility that it will be leaked. Second of all, believe it or not, just because it is inadmissible doesn't necessarily mean it won't be released (although I'd say Kraft is currently in a good position on that matter).

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

The only “evidence” is the word of police officers (who are now proven liars/exaggerators) that they claim they saw a video of him which they cannot release.

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Gimme a break. The judge ruled the "minimization techniques employed in this case did not satisfy Constitutional requirements." He didn't rule that the police are proven to be the lying spawn of satan.

Are you saying they were lying in their description of the events on the video? Even Kraft's lawyers aren't claiming that....

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Definitely enough for Goodell, since he only cares about public image, but I do wonder what a real commissioner would do here. It’s quite possible that Kraft would just admit what he did behind closed doors if the commissioner weren’t a backstabbing unfathomable POS.

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Well I sure wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall when Goodell asks Kraft what happened.

AndyJohnson said:

No. Translation: people were saying they knew what happened without proof.
I was saying I will assume things were done properly until there is proof they were not.
People twisted that into arguing I said things I didn’t, such as I am certain the police did no wrong, I support them doing wrong and a bunch of crap like that.
Ultimately they guessed right. Good for them. That doesn’t make “wait for the facts” wrong.

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You accepted law enforcements’s narrative hook line and sinker despite the blaring signals.

Like BB and the Patriots, you should self assess after such an epic failure

Next step (after likely appeal) .... motion to dismiss. No video no case

borg said:

You accepted law enforcements’s narrative hook line and sinker despite the blaring signals.

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That’s just not true. I accepted it AT THAT POINT PENDING FACTS.
Note that I didn’t judge the rumors, suspicions, arguments and defense accusations either way.
My argument was that I trust law enforcement did right, until there is proof (not supposition, proof) that they did wrong.

You act as if I said I know what happened and judged the case before it was heard which is literally the opposite of the truth.

Like BB and the Patriots, you should self assess after such an epic failure

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Evidently advice you should take.

Going after the Johns is the definition of low hanging fruit.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

All of the reasons cited by the judge were exactly on par with what everyone (minus one) posted in that thread. And with the help of @venecol ‘s court documents which everyone (minus one) agreed exposed the operation as a clearly illegal police surveillance trick. The only thing most were hoping for was that the Florida judicial system had not built some kind of terrible precedents (which would eventually need to be overturned by SCOTUS) to allow this to happen, which we now know they did not.

The judge cited all of the clear reasons why this was illegal. And a lot of credit to many members of this forum who, despite not being lawyers, used their critical thinking skills to easily predict the outcome. This message board is probably the only place in the US outside of Kraft’s attorneys that saw this ruling coming and studied the case thoroughly. That’s awesome.

1. The warrant was built on false pretenses. This was agreed upon by virtually all forum members, that the PD had a very weak probable cause that there was a major sex trafficking operation. Venecol posted a document whereby the lead detective admits he found his “probable cause” on a website, and there was no evidence of trafficking (just misdemeanor sex acts.)

2. Common sense tells us that there are never videos like this released, so police would need to act with extreme caution to balance privacy with public safety. It was obvious from their records, length of time recording, number of people recorded, sloppy process, and lack of any ongoing evidence, that this was a massive invasion of privacy. “Expectation of privacy” was cited numerous times in the thread, and the judge used those exact words.

3. Many also brought up the traffic stop as a classic illegal tactic, which again the judge confirmed.

4. The communications between the prosecutors and defense attorneys, as Venecol provided, showed one side (Kraft) as reasonable and having a strong case and the other (prosecution) appearing to have absolutely nothing, not even appropriate responses, childish antics, and a total lack of justification for the warrant.

If there was any doubt about who gets the benefit of the doubt, the PD clearly lied from the beginning about the sex trafficking scandal and tried a pathetic PR campaign, claiming this was an “international operation” because the masseuse was Chinese (lol).

I don’t care about Kraft, but this case hits home for me. Surveillance is something that I think is an important issue for me and my kids, and it’s good anytime you expose secret campaigns like this. It was a pleasure participating in the thread with a very satisfying and just outcome. Thanks one more time to @venecol , whose excellent research gave us all (minus one) a really good inside look at the case as it unfolded.

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What in the world are you even talking about here? The judge didn't say any of those things. He didn't say a single word about the traffic stop, he didn't say that the warrant was based on false pretenses and he didn't say that the police lied in any way.

What he said was the police didn't do enough to minimize the recording of innocent persons using that establishment, therefore all the video evidence is inadmissible. In other words, Kraft is getting off on a technicality.

Well here's my 2 cents on a topic I pretty much avoided for the most part.

1. I really don't give a good sh!t WHAT our vomitous commissioner does. I mean what can he do. The bar has been set, and its pretty low. What was it, 5 games for being found with illegal drugs, cash and in an inebriated state. So say this ******* of a commissioner decides that 5 games is Patriot-fair for gong into a legal massage parlor. How does that affect this team, the product on the field. I doesn't. So I don't care (unless draft picks are involved). It wouldn't be even close to being fair. It would be momentarily embarrassing. And the media would give the haters about 2 weeks worth of fodder that I can easily overcome. So that's a non-story for me.

2. I've read posts from fans who felt this was karmic retribution for his "failure" to back up Tom as well as THEY'd have liked. Or the moral high ground mob who still assume that Bob paid for a * and that he should be pilloried and forced to where a scarlet H for the rest of his life. To that crowd I give you my EXTENDED middle finger. I mean Really really out there. You should be ashamed.

It's pretty clear that this case will now be eventually dismissed. But the cost of it will FOREVER remain high for the Kraft family. Think about it. This is a man who has lead a life that NONE of us could imagine. We forget that Myra Kraft's biggest objection to Kraft buying this team was it might limit their philanthropic endeavors.

Long before Kraft was on our radar, his largesse was enormous. And as his wealth grew, so did his giving all around the world, INCLUDING 6 figure grants to groups who help sex workers get out of the life. He was a mench, who knew what a mitzvah was. (get @Patjew to translate if you need it).

Bob Kraft was a great business man before he bought the Pats. BECAUSE he was, he built this franchise into what it is today. Not that he hasn't made mistakes. Very few compared to other ownership's, but he made some. Mistakes that some "fans" like to jump on because they have never made any themselves. Whenever he made them, I called him out too, but given his record overall, if you are still harping on them only shows just how small YOU are.

3. This entire event was orchestrated by a publicity hound of DA and sheriff's office who abused their power to create an event for their own personal gain. That massage parlor didn't just open up in the last few months. It had been their for a long while. So if you assume every massage parlor is just a front for prostitution, the police knew what was going on there LONG before Bob Kraft came on the scene, and did nothing about it, UNTIL they got a "big fish".

4. Prostitution exists in EVERY county of EVERY state in this union.....and has for as long as there has been a United States of America. It's illegal, not because it's "immoral". When has having consensual sex ever been "immoral". It's illegal because its CONVENIENT. The same way it was during Prohibition. Every now and then Law Enforcement can round up whores and pimps, take a few photo's, run a few editorials, and start the cycle all over again after the local elections They don't want to shut it down, because it serves a public need, but rather just show the flag. Let everyone know they are doing their jobs.

5. True sex trafficking would be illimated with the legalization of prostitution. The same forces that kept Prohibition going for 12 long years., organized criminals, law enforcement, and self aggrandizing politicians; are the same forces that are keep prostitution and MJ a crime Now we add the private prison lobby. Not much business for them if we stop sending people to them for victimless crimes.

6. Bottom line, Bob Kraft's reputation is ruined regardless of what happens from this point on. And it's a shame that a lifetime of work and be diminished by a momentary, but very natural weakness. If you are happy about that, I pity you.

OK rant over

patfanken said:

Well here's my 2 cents on a topic I pretty much avoided for the most part.

1. I really don't give a good sh!t WHAT our vomitous commissioner does. I mean what can he do.

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Unfortunately he can pretty much do whatever he wants with regard to suspending Kraft.

Another one of those events that reenforces the position I have with the “No cops allowed in my house unless I called you or you have a warrant”.

No offense to the good/great ones out there, which I am sure is the vast majority, but as I said to a few ladies in college “it isn’t me, it’s you”

Still can’t believe a billionaire gets serviced at a strip mall Rub and Tug but that’s beyond the point.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

2. The Jupiter PD

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These imbeciles were breaking every law under the sun in their unethical attempt to F the owner of the most successful dynasty in the history of professional sports. I know, I know using unethical in defense of RK is a bit of a double standard ....but anyway, for the purposes of my irrelevant post we will call RK a star due to his credentials above. So these jealous LOLphin fans within the Jupiter PD were trying to F the Star.

In honor of the Jupiter (Home of Dan Marino) Police I give you Star Star.

If you haven't heard it (a) why the F not? and (b) make sure you at least listen up to the chorus.

XLIX said:

What in the world are you even talking about here? The judge didn't say any of those things. He didn't say a single word about the traffic stop, he didn't say that the warrant was based on false pretenses and he didn't say that the police lied in any way.

What he said was the police didn't do enough to minimize the recording of innocent persons using that establishment, therefore all the video evidence is inadmissible. In other words, Kraft is getting off on a technicality.

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It’s an interesting read, even as a non lawyer.
It appears that the judge found no issues with the warrant and it being justified and agreed the standard for sneak and peak (the one he used more in that later) was met, however the warrant did not give direction nor did police practice minimization (only filming the actual crimes) and that was the reason the warrant was wrong.
It appears had they only turned the tape on while sex acts were occurring this judge would have admitted the tapes. (Of course there would be other legal arguments as well)

Interestingly he also ruled the ID of kraft to be inadmissible because the ID only occurred because of what was seen on the tape.
So unless they appeal it looks like this is over.


For the lawyers:

the judge states that he is only supposed to be bound by SCOTUS or Florida cases as precedent but since there was a dearth of like cases, he used federal court Mesa-rincon as his precedent.

Is that a legitimate point of appeal (or common practice that I’m reading as unusual)
and if so would they bother to appeal the ruling on a misdemeanor?

AndyJohnson said:

It’s an interesting read, even as a non lawyer.
It appears that the judge found no issues with the warrant and it being justified and agreed the standard for sneak and peak (the one he used more in that later) was met, however the warrant did not give direction nor did police practice minimization (only filming the actual crimes) and that was the reason the warrant was wrong.
It appears had they only turned the tape on while sex acts were occurring this judge would have admitted the tapes. (Of course there would be other legal arguments as well)

Interestingly he also ruled the ID of kraft to be inadmissible because the ID only occurred because of what was seen on the tape.
So unless they appeal it looks like this is over.


For the lawyers:

the judge states that he is only supposed to be bound by SCOTUS or Florida cases as precedent but since there was a dearth of like cases, he used federal court Mesa-rincon as his precedent.

Is that a legitimate point of appeal (or common practice that I’m reading as unusual)
and if so would they bother to appeal the ruling on a misdemeanor?

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@Ice_Ice_Brady What is funny about that?

Time for Anonymous hacktivist group to do their thing and expose the corrupt piece of **** that bendover bob is and gain access to that footage and post it all over the internet.

Wheelman said:

Time for Anonymous hacktivist group to do their thing and expose the corrupt piece of **** that bendover bob is and gain access to that footage and post it all over the internet.

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Let’s hope that doesn’t happen. Who wants to see that?

Wheelman said:

Time for Anonymous hacktivist group to do their thing and expose the corrupt piece of **** that bendover bob is and gain access to that footage and post it all over the internet.

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A bit much for a happy ending.
Kraft has endured public scorn - an event in his life he can never erase.
However his good deeds (charity) far outweigh his missteps and it's not even close.

Wheelman said:

Time for Anonymous hacktivist group to do their thing and expose the corrupt piece of **** that bendover bob is and gain access to that footage and post it all over the internet.

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Wheelman said:

Time for Anonymous hacktivist group to do their thing and expose the corrupt piece of **** that bendover bob is and gain access to that footage and post it all over the internet.

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if this were to happen it would bob's fault only and bob's problem only.