Jones, Dawson and Jackson

BradyFTW! · May 2, 2019

Can never have enough corners, and there is ST value there. I'd keep em all.

Uptown · May 2, 2019

Deus Irae said:
The Patriots will need all their CBs. They're going to be playing a 1-1-9 this year.

Yep and if s#*t hits the fan, they’ll just dial up the 9-1-1 D

50-yard-line · May 2, 2019

SBLIII said:
Since I followed PFF I am always hoping we draft highly productive players and not raw players with high ceilings. Grissom was another one of those who had a meh college career and had a high ceiling (in theory). Loved the Flowers pick therefore and now Winovich as well.

This is why I'm thrilled with the N'Keal Harry pick. Super productive in college. That's what you want.

As for Dawson, it's understandable that he didn't get on the field. The Pats secondary was in full gel mode when he returned, and with the emergence of Jackson and the great play of JMac, and Jones in the slot, who would he have replaced?

With it being Jones' last year, I'll be very surprised if Dawson doesn't make the team. He was a good college corner.

ctpatsfan77 · May 2, 2019

ivanvamp said:
JMac is someone I think BB really likes, but he's older and may be on the chopping block, especially if Jones and Williams show really well in camp

Given that his 2019 salary is already fully guaranteed, JMac is an unlikely cut.

ctpatsfan77 · May 2, 2019

SBLIII said:
He is solid at what he does but that's about it to me. NFL teams weren't willing to give up a 2nd round pick, that speaks volume to me.

That's because a team has to sign him to a deal and cough up a pick. There's a reason it's been a long time since any team has signed away an RFA on anything other than an original-round tender.

mgteich · May 3, 2019

It seems that the conclusion is to keep 6 corners (not counting Crossen who would have to beat out one of the Sters to make the 53). Dawson would be expected to inactive in every game unless he beats out this year's #2 draft choice for reps.

After all TEN active defensive backs is probably more than enough.
5 corners - Gilmore, Jackson, McCourty, STer Jones and Williams or Dawson
3 safeties - McCourty, Chung, Harmon
1 ST/S - Brooks or Obi or even Crossen
1 STO - Ebner

BOTTOM LINE
I wanted to bring up the possibility of a trade. I'm OK with having a squad with 11 DB's, including 3 STers: Jones, Ebner and Brooks (or Obi or Crossen).

That makes it likely that we will have 14 front six players: 8-9 DL's and 4-5 LB and 1-2 STer (King for now). We carried 4 LB/STers last year: Grigsby, King, McClellan and Humber. Van Noy also played lots of special teams.

As far as special teamers, King is going nowhere. He played on 62% of the ST reps and is a key special teamer. Bentley replaces Grigsby and hopefully will play lots of special teams. Someone will need to pick up the reps of McClellan and Humber, who together participated in half of the special teams reps.

supafly · May 3, 2019

mgteich said:
It seems that the conclusion is to keep 6 corners (not counting Crossen who would have to beat out one of the Sters to make the 53). Dawson would be expected to inactive in every game unless he beats out this year's #2 draft choice for reps.

After all TEN active defensive back is probably more than enough.
5 corners - Gilmore, Jackson, McCourty, STer Jones and Williams or Dawson
3 safeties - McCourty, Chung, Harmon
1 ST/S - Brooks or Obi or even Crossen
1 STO - Ebner

BOTTOM LINE
I wanted to bring up the possibility of a trade. I'm OK with having a squad with 11 DB's, including 3 STers: Jones, Ebner and Brooks (or Obi or Crossen).

That makes it likely that we will have 14 front six players: 8-9 DL's and 4-5 LB and 1-2 STer (King for now). We carried 4 LB/STers last year: Grigsby, King, McClellan and Humber. Van Nay also played lots of special teams.

As far as special teamers, King is going nowhere. He played on 62% of the ST reps and is a key special teamer. Bentley replaces Grigsby and hopefully will play lots of special teams. Someone will need to pick up the reps of McClellan and Humber, who together participated in half of the special teams reps.

These are all “perfect” injury-free scenarios, so the problem will likely sort itself out by the beginning of September. Even if everyone remains healthy, I still don’t think there would be an issue keeping 6 CBs, since it’s quite possible that at least one of them will be getting some reps in gameplan specific matchups, meaning that the lines between CB/S may become a bit blurry.

All of JMac, Dawson, and Williams could be considered for some of these responsibilities, but even if they weren’t, you still have the potential for injuries, preparation for 2020 free agency/retirement, and overall developmental roles. Since no one but Crossen would make it through waivers (some are obviously ineligible) to the PS, I think Belichick would manipulate the roster to carry 11 DBs, particularly when some have pure ST only types of roles.

Water Boy · May 3, 2019

So nice to have depth at CB. For years our secondary was the teams weak link.

SBLIII · May 3, 2019

kurtinelson said:
So nice to have depth at CB. For years our secondary was the teams weak link.

and the main reason we did not win Super Bowls.

condon84 · May 3, 2019

SBLIII said:
Similar to Flowers in 2015. I'm sure glad we didn't give up on him.

Flowers is/was an anomaly. He proved to be a great player.

There have been plenty of Patriot players picked relatively high that never become anything because they simply weren't good enough. There's a litany of DBs picked in the first few rounds in the BB era that don't amount to anything. Those that do develop like Asante, JC, Malcolm, Devon, you saw right away early on that they were going to be good players.

SBLIII · May 3, 2019

condon84 said:
Flowers is/was an anomaly. He proved to be a great player.

There have been plenty of Patriot players picked relatively high that never become anything because they simply weren't good enough. There's a litany of DBs picked in the first few rounds in the BB era that don't amount to anything. Those that do develop like Asante, JC, Malcolm, Devon, you saw right away early on that they were going to be good players.

James White was barely active in his first season as well.

Not saying Dawson will definitely become a good player, but I'm certainly patient and in wait and see mode.

mgteich · May 3, 2019

I expect that Dawson will have camps and the pre-season to prove himself worthy of developing for 2020, when we are likely to lose at least one DB. It is awesome that we may need nothing from Dawson or this year's #2 DB pick for 2019.

We are more than fine with Gilmore, Jackson, J McCourty and Jones.

SBLIII said:
James White was barely active in his first season as well.

Not saying Dawson will definitely become a good player, but I'm certainly patient and in wait and see mode.

SBLIII · May 3, 2019

mgteich said:
I expect that Dawson will have camps and the pre-season to prove himself worthy of developing for 2020, when we are likely to lose at least one DB. It is awesome that we may need nothing from Dawson or this year's #2 DB for 2019.

I agree.

I hope nobody retires, gets injured or his play drops off but this is unlikely and worst case we might lose both McCourtys, Chung and Jones for 2020. Of course that isn't likely either but we could see a significant change from this to next year.

patsbrasilpatriotas · May 3, 2019

mgteich said:
Jones, Dawson, Jackson
=================
Depending on how they perform in camp, we might be willing to trade one of these players. If all look good, Jones "should" be on the trading block. He is in his contract year.

JC is a lock IMO. And we have him for cheap for another 3 years?

I like the idea to trade JJ tho, but they should fetch at least a 3rd, because a 4th or 5th they will get if he leaves in FA. Isee Dawson is a Chung's backup and SCB backup for now. Jason could play SCB too i supose. That leave us with Gilmore, JC and Williams as OCB and Jason and Dawson as SCB. That works for me. Maybe they coudl trade him to a place like Tampa for Brate. I would like to fetch a second for Thuney too if they don't want to keep him or can't, that depends of course how the kid from Arkansas will look. If they sign Veldheer They could go with 4 T and Wynn as a backup LG for the kid from Arkansas.

Pretty solid too

T: Cajuste, Veldheer, Cannon
LG: Hjalte Froholdt
C: Andrews
RG: Mason
Backup RG/C: Karras
T/LG: Wynn

mgteich · May 3, 2019

I'm fine with trading Jones after the 3rd preseason game if everyone is healthy, and if Dawson is ready to contribute.

patsbrasilpatriotas said:
JC is a lock IMO. And we have him for cheap for another 3 years?

I like the idea to trade JJ tho, but they should fetch at least a 3rd, because a 4th or 5th they will get if he leaves in FA. Isee Dawson is a Chung's backup and SCB backup for now. Jason could play SCB too i supose. That leave us with Gilmore, JC and Williams as OCB and Jason and Dawson as SCB. That works for me.

mgteich · May 3, 2019

I don't want to trade Thuney. One disruption in the OL is plenty. I expect that the rookies will need time to develop. I'm not even sure that either will be the game day backup this year. The swing OT job would likely go the OT vet the we sign.

You have Froholdt as the starting LG. I'm not even sure that he will be able to beat out Karras for the job of game day backup at OG and C.

BOTTOM LINE
Once we settle on a veteran swing OT, we will have a very strong OL. It is a strength. We should NOT weaken it.

The situation at CB is much, much different. There, we were discussing a 6th CB when we only needed 5. Here, we are discussing a starter who is integral to the performance of the OL.

patsbrasilpatriotas said:
I would like to fetch a second for Thuney too if they don't want to keep him or can't, that depends of course how the kid from Arkansas will look. If they sign Veldheer They could go with 4 T and Wynn as a backup LG for the kid from Arkansas.

Pretty solid too

T: Cajuste, Veldheer, Cannon
LG: Hjalte Froholdt
C: Andrews
RG: Mason
Backup RG/C: Karras
T/LG: Wynn

patsbrasilpatriotas · May 4, 2019

mgteich said:
I don't want to trade Thuney. One disruption in the OL is plenty. I expect that the rookies will need time to develop. I'm not even sure that either will be the game day backup this year. The swing OT job would likely go the OT vet the we sign.

You have Froholdt as the starting LG. I'm not even sure that he will be able to beat out Karras for the job of game day backup at OG and C.

BOTTOM LINE
Once we settle on a veteran swing OT, we will have a very strong OL. It is a strength. We should NOT weaken it.

The situation at CB is much, much different. There, we were discussing a 6th CB when we only needed 5. Here, we are discussing a starter who is integral to the performance of the OL.

They did it with Jones and Collins - i know they have other problems. If they feel one year of thuney + 4th is enough i am happy, if they want to flip him for a proven player i am happy too. They have to see how the kid looks first i agree. I already know how Karras looks and he is like Waddle: a really good / cheap backup, if that's Hjalte ceilling, they will have to pray to Cajuste pan out at LT and slide Wynn LG next year. OL is stacked too like CB it is our best unit.

BelichicksHoodie · May 4, 2019

50-yard-line said:
This is why I'm thrilled with the N'Keal Harry pick. Super productive in college. That's what you want.

As for Dawson, it's understandable that he didn't get on the field. The Pats secondary was in full gel mode when he returned, and with the emergence of Jackson and the great play of JMac, and Jones in the slot, who would he have replaced?

With it being Jones' last year, I'll be very surprised if Dawson doesn't make the team. He was a good college corner.

Exactly, I'm happy that Bill and Nick value the tape and production over the underwear olympics. Very rarely do we draft projects or guys that "could be great" one day. We take guys from big programs who have proved it at one level and now have the chance to prove it at the next one.

RobertWeathers · May 4, 2019

For the PFF crowd.

Some decent data here.

If JC improves this pass D will be sick

Jackson averaged 39.3 defensive snaps a game from Week 7 through the Super Bowl as the Pats’ starting outside cornerback opposite of Gilmore. His 72.4 overall grade on the year (includes postseason) ranked just 29th among the 89 cornerbacks with at least 50 targets, but his efforts on downfield targets largely made up for his struggles against underneath routes. He earned just a 62.4 coverage grade on passes on nine or fewer air yards but turned the second-best coverage grade (74.4) on passes of 10-plus air yards in 2018.

Jackson’s stellar 2018 campaign also stands tall compared to rookie cornerbacks in the PFF era (2006-Present). Among the 107 rookie cornerbacks with at least 50 targets in their debut season in the NFL, Jackson’s 51.6% completion percentage allowed ties for seventh, his 20.3 FINC percentage ranks sixth, and his 60.2 passer rating allowed ranks sixth

Stephon Gilmore, JC Jackson enter the 2019 season as one the NFL’s top cornerback duos | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus

SBLIII · May 4, 2019

robertweathers said:
For the PFF crowd.

Some decent data here.

If JC improves this pass D will be sick

Stephon Gilmore, JC Jackson enter the 2019 season as one the NFL’s top cornerback duos | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus

Hopefully he is NE's Chris Harris Jr or AJ Bouye

Jones, Dawson and Jackson

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