Let's Play "This was the TE to take"

Urgent · Apr 29, 2019

I'll play.

To lay this out under the picks they took, post-trades:

45: Joejuan Williams or Irv Smith, Drew Sample, Josh Oliver, Jace Sternberger
77 Chase Winovich or Kahale Warring
87 Damien Harris or Dawson Knox
101 Yodny Cajuste or Trevon Wesco
118 Hjalte Froholdt/134 Jarrett Stidham or Foster Moreau, Zach Gentry
162 Byron Cowart/163 Jake Bailey or Kaden Smith, Isaac Nauta, Tommy Sweeney, Alize Mack
252 Ken Webster or Caleb Wilson, Dax Raymond

252 - what's not to like about Caleb Wilson at this point? 6-4 240, 4.56 40, 965 yards @ 16.1 ypc, son of an NFL coach, HS QB
Instead the Patriots have an 8th CB, with one rookie and three second-year players on the roster. Webster is 5-10.7, 203, 4.43 40. Duke Dawson is 5-10.5 197, 4.46; JC Jackson is 5-10 201, 4.46. So you have that type of corner pretty covered.

I'd prefer Foster Moreau to either Froholdt or Stidham. Moreau is a good blocker, and has the speed to develop into an athletic receiver.

You can make an argument for the Harris pick. Hey, last year they had Cordarrelle Patterson running out of the backfield.
a) He wasn't bad.
b) That's because they had two injuries at RB - Michel and Burkhead. This year if you have two injuries, you still have Brandon Bolden.
c) UDFA RB's available included Devine Ozigbo, Nebraska (6-0 233, 4.5-range 40 at Pro Day, 7.0 ypc, 1082 yards, 203 receiving, 12 TD.s), Karan Higdon, Michigan (5-9.1 206, 4.49 40, 5.3 ypc, 1178 yards, 10 TD's) and other option.
Dawson Knox (6-4.3, 254, 4.51 40, 18.9 ypc) would likely make a greater contribution to the Patriots of the next couple years than a #5 RB.
Was Harris a great value? Maybe. But was his marginal value to the team greater than the marginal value of a decent TE?

I also tend to fall in love with the picks the Patriots make, and Belichick has a pretty good track record of building good teams. I didn't see a lot of people clamoring for Yodny Cajuste, Hjlate Froholdt, Byron Cowart, Jake Bailey, or Ken Webster during the draft, but those TE names sure were mentioned a lot.

LJRomanoff · Apr 29, 2019

mgteich said:
but perhaps we could have used our 7th plus brought in punters to have competition

And perhaps the Patriots would have done that had they been convinced Bailey would be available at the bottom of the seventh. Bailey was the punter they wanted, and he'll save the team several million dollars. Considering how important the Patriots have always made special teams play, I don't understand why people are surprised by this pick or assume an equivalent player could just be signed off the street.

LJRomanoff · Apr 29, 2019

ctpatsfan77 said:
So why not, say, take a flyer on the best TE left on the board?

What TE on day three was clearly better than Ryan Izzo? A better question is: why draft a rookie TE when the team already has one?

patfanken · Apr 29, 2019

Cmon PC. You started this thread just to PISS ME OFF, didn't you?

VJCPatriot · May 1, 2019

Well Urgent, Caleb Wilson is a sleeper pick tight end. But he was also Mr. Irrelevant. That makes him the LAST pick of the 7th round. So 31 teams passed on him including the Patriots.

NFL talent evaluators simply didn't think he merited a draft selection outside of Arizona. Hard for me to lose sleep on this one. Who knows he might still work out and have a good NFL career. He also could have just as easily ended up a UDFA. And we still don't know if he will even survive training camp with the Cards.

Foster Moreau had 15 receptions for 185 yards his senior season. Nothing screams out that he will be anything other than a 3rd string blocking TE in the NFL.

I get it, I'm not comfortable with the Pats TE situation either. But I have a feeling we are not done there. BB will either pick up more competition after camp cuts or he will trade for a vet. The Pats are one of the best teams at scouting other people's talents and turning them into productive cogs in our system. Look at what they did with Kyle Van Noy as just one recent example.

50-yard-line · May 1, 2019

Urgent said:
I'll play.

To lay this out under the picks they took, post-trades:

45: Joejuan Williams or Irv Smith, Drew Sample, Josh Oliver, Jace Sternberger
77 Chase Winovich or Kahale Warring
87 Damien Harris or Dawson Knox
101 Yodny Cajuste or Trevon Wesco
118 Hjalte Froholdt/134 Jarrett Stidham or Foster Moreau, Zach Gentry
162 Byron Cowart/163 Jake Bailey or Kaden Smith, Isaac Nauta, Tommy Sweeney, Alize Mack
252 Ken Webster or Caleb Wilson, Dax Raymond

252 - what's not to like about Caleb Wilson at this point? 6-4 240, 4.56 40, 965 yards @ 16.1 ypc, son of an NFL coach, HS QB
Instead the Patriots have an 8th CB, with one rookie and three second-year players on the roster. Webster is 5-10.7, 203, 4.43 40. Duke Dawson is 5-10.5 197, 4.46; JC Jackson is 5-10 201, 4.46. So you have that type of corner pretty covered.

I'd prefer Foster Moreau to either Froholdt or Stidham. Moreau is a good blocker, and has the speed to develop into an athletic receiver.

You can make an argument for the Harris pick. Hey, last year they had Cordarrelle Patterson running out of the backfield.
a) He wasn't bad.
b) That's because they had two injuries at RB - Michel and Burkhead. This year if you have two injuries, you still have Brandon Bolden.
c) UDFA RB's available included Devine Ozigbo, Nebraska (6-0 233, 4.5-range 40 at Pro Day, 7.0 ypc, 1082 yards, 203 receiving, 12 TD.s), Karan Higdon, Michigan (5-9.1 206, 4.49 40, 5.3 ypc, 1178 yards, 10 TD's) and other option.
Dawson Knox (6-4.3, 254, 4.51 40, 18.9 ypc) would likely make a greater contribution to the Patriots of the next couple years than a #5 RB.
Was Harris a great value? Maybe. But was his marginal value to the team greater than the marginal value of a decent TE?

I also tend to fall in love with the picks the Patriots make, and Belichick has a pretty good track record of building good teams. I didn't see a lot of people clamoring for Yodny Cajuste, Hjlate Froholdt, Byron Cowart, Jake Bailey, or Ken Webster during the draft, but those TE names sure were mentioned a lot.

Nice post.

My only thought is that BB didn't think any of them were better than ASJ, Izzo, LaCosse, or Stephen Anderson. People might be sleeping on Anderson a bit, by the way. His pro-day numbers were pretty impressive - better than most of those names being thrown around here a a "flyer."

Anderson vs. Kaden Smith, for example:

4.64 40 vs. 4.92
4.13 20ss vs. 4.47
6.96 3-come vs. 7.08

Compare him to any but Hock, Fant, Smith...he's faster, he's quicker, he's more explosive (38 inch vertical). Some of those guys are bigger, granted. But if Anderson was undrafted with superior combine/pro-day results, then...

I dunno.

Wozzy · May 1, 2019

Package those two 5th round picks into another 4th and take Moreau, if not him than Warring. The punter probably would have gone undrafted and Cowart won't make it out of camp and if he does he will hang around for a while until he washes out.

LJRomanoff · May 1, 2019

Wozzy said:
Package those two 5th round picks into another 4th and take Moreau, if not him than Warring. The punter probably would have gone undrafted and Cowart won't make it out of camp and if he does he will hang around for a while until he washes out.

Assumes a lot of facts not in evidence (Moreau is better than Izzo, punter would have gone undrafted, Cowart is already a bust).

Wozzy · May 1, 2019

LJRomanoff said:
Assumes a lot of facts not in evidence (Moreau is better than Izzo, punter would have gone undrafted, Cowart is already a bust).

Izzo is already on the roster, Acquiring Moreau doesn't change that. Cowart will suck. The only thing I'm assuming is the punter would go undrafted, considering he was the last punter taken makes it not too difficult to assume. We could get by with another season of Ryan Allen assuming I'm wrong, also assuming that kid can beat out Ryan Allen for the job... that's not a given, they brought another punter in last training camp as well.

RelocatedPatFan · May 2, 2019

patchick said:
The one big complaint many have about this Patriots draft was the lack of a tight end. 13 TEs were drafted from pick #32 on, and doubtless a few will turn out to be good players who we'll wish we had.

But of course, you don't get to pick all 13 on draft day. You have to pick a particular guy.

Here's everybody's chance for future bragging (or grousing ) rights. If you think the Patriots made a mistake passing on the tight end class, name the TE you think they should have picked, and which actual draftee he would have replaced. E.g. "Irv Smith instead of Joejuan Williams."

I'm going to reserve mine for a GDT after the first pass bounces out of a TE's hands. Because (Insert Pick) would have not only caught it, but been in a position to make 5-15 more yards.

VJCPatriot · May 2, 2019

He's just playing the game. Apparently he thinks Moreau and Warring will be good NFL TE's. I don't find them impressive personally. But you never know. In any case, I don't think BB is done with the TE position. We have a lot of time to go before the final roster takes shape.

Simpelton · May 2, 2019

I'm gonna go on record that I think our TE group is actually more than adequate. They seem to have a fairly balanced skillset and with the addition of N'Keal Harry in the receiver group and another solid running back canddiate they've already insulated themselves against the drop in production we can obviously expect at TE this year.

People are failing to learn from history. It is NOT true that we need to improve every year at every position. This team can absolutely rebalance its game around a softer TE tandem and it looks like they've made some obvious moves already to get them there.

If the position proves a real pitfall I don't expect Bill to have a very hard time trying to find a few good trade candidates to balance things out. I don't think we need a superstar TE to compete, given that we've competed without superstar TE play before.

SBLIII · May 2, 2019

Simpelton said:
I'm gonna go on record that I think our TE group is actually more than adequate. They seem to have a fairly balanced skillset and with the addition of N'Keal Harry in the receiver group and another solid running back canddiate they've already insulated themselves against the drop in production we can obviously expect at TE this year.

People are failing to learn from history. It is NOT true that we need to improve every year at every position. This team can absolutely rebalance its game around a softer TE tandem and it looks like they've made some obvious moves already to get them there.

If the position proves a real pitfall I don't expect Bill to have a very hard time trying to find a few good trade candidates to balance things out. I don't think we need a superstar TE to compete, given that we've competed without superstar TE play before.

The blocking should see a drop off but I'm not even sure we see a big drop off in terms of receiving production.

LJRomanoff · May 2, 2019

Wozzy said:
Izzo is already on the roster, Acquiring Moreau doesn't change that. Cowart will suck. The only thing I'm assuming is the punter would go undrafted, considering he was the last punter taken makes it not too difficult to assume. We could get by with another season of Ryan Allen assuming I'm wrong, also assuming that kid can beat out Ryan Allen for the job... that's not a given, they brought another punter in last training camp as well.

I am struggling to follow your logic.

"Izzo is already on the roster, Acquiring Moreau doesn't change that."

Right. So you wanted the Patriots to not only use a draft pick, but to use extra draft capital to move up in order to select a player who is essentially the same as one already on the roster? I fail to see the value in this.

"Cowart will suck."

Sorry. You have no way of knowing this.

"The only thing I'm assuming is the punter would go undrafted, considering he was the last punter taken makes it not too difficult to assume."

Your argument is that no punters were drafted after Bailey, therefore Bailey would not have been drafted had the Patriots not selected him? Did it occur to you that the reason no other punters were drafted was that the coveted one (Bailey) was already gone?

"We could get by with another season of Ryan Allen"

Very possibly. But Bailey offers several million dollars savings if he is equivalent or better than Allen.

Wozzy · May 2, 2019

LJRomanoff said:
I am struggling to follow your logic.

"Izzo is already on the roster, Acquiring Moreau doesn't change that."

Right. So you wanted the Patriots to not only use a draft pick, but to use extra draft capital to move up in order to select a player who is essentially the same as one already on the roster? I fail to see the value in this.

"Cowart will suck."

Sorry. You have no way of knowing this.

"The only thing I'm assuming is the punter would go undrafted, considering he was the last punter taken makes it not too difficult to assume."

Your argument is that no punters were drafted after Bailey, therefore Bailey would not have been drafted had the Patriots not selected him? Did it occur to you that the reason no other punters were drafted was that the coveted one (Bailey) was already gone?

"We could get by with another season of Ryan Allen"

Very possibly. But Bailey offers several million dollars savings if he is equivalent or better than Allen.

You suggested Izzo being on the roster was good reason not to draft one of the available tightends, did you not? Izzo is already on the roster, whether Moreau is better or not doesn't preempt them from drafting Moreau. And not for nothing but fans are assuming quite a bit with Izzo, I suppose because of his name and bloodlines. If Izzo works out he will still be a blocking TE, he is slow.... period. He isn't going to magically become a fast receiving threat TE because we like his dad or will it change that he was drafted in the 7th and Moreau in the 4th. He'll be the newer younger Dwayne Allen, assuming he even works out.

Cowart has poor athleticism and poor results in college, if he doesn't suck he'll miraculously be the first of his kind. I think he was drafted because he was a widely regarded high school player who never reached his potential. Will he? Doubt it... IMO a wasted pick. At best he'll hang around for a few years playing DE, long enough for us to forget this conversation.

I think the Pats will trade for Kyle Rudolph before its all said and done. If not we'll slog by with the TE's we have and use more WR's. Time will prove who was right or wrong...

LJRomanoff · May 2, 2019

Wozzy said:
You suggested Izzo being on the roster was good reason not to draft one of the available tightends, did you not? Izzo is already on the roster, whether Moreau is better or not doesn't preempt them from drafting Moreau.

It should (and did) preempt them from drafting Moreau because they already have the equivalent player on the roster. There was no reason to waste draft picks on a redundancy.

Wozzy said:
And not for nothing but fans are assuming quite a bit with Izzo, I suppose because of his name and bloodlines. If Izzo works out he will still be a blocking TE, he is slow.... period. He isn't going to magically become a fast receiving threat TE because we like his dad

Ryan Izzo isn't related to Larry Izzo.

WaterfallJumper · May 2, 2019

Wozzy said:
You suggested Izzo being on the roster was good reason not to draft one of the available tightends, did you not? Izzo is already on the roster, whether Moreau is better or not doesn't preempt them from drafting Moreau. And not for nothing but fans are assuming quite a bit with Izzo, I suppose because of his name and bloodlines. If Izzo works out he will still be a blocking TE, he is slow.... period. He isn't going to magically become a fast receiving threat TE because we like his dad or will it change that he was drafted in the 7th and Moreau in the 4th. He'll be the newer younger Dwayne Allen, assuming he even works out.

Cowart has poor athleticism and poor results in college, if he doesn't suck he'll miraculously be the first of his kind. I think he was drafted because he was a widely regarded high school player who never reached his potential. Will he? Doubt it... IMO a wasted pick. At best he'll hang around for a few years playing DE, long enough for us to forget this conversation.

I think the Pats will trade for Kyle Rudolph before its all said and done. If not we'll slog by with the TE's we have and use more WR's. Time will prove who was right or wrong...

I have a very different take on Cowart. He's got great power and is a plus run defender. If you're looking for sacks to rate his results in college, you're barking up the wrong tree. Cowart was one of my favorite picks -- I predicted we'd take him before the draft, and I'm excited to see how he develops here. Have you watched him, or are you going off reports?

Wozzy · May 2, 2019

LJRomanoff said:
It should (and did) preempt them from drafting Moreau because they already have the equivalent player on the roster. There was no reason to waste draft picks on a redundancy.

Ryan Izzo isn't related to Larry Izzo.

Then we have even less reason to believe he is the 7th round savior at TE that some are assuming he will be.

LJRomanoff · May 2, 2019

Wozzy said:
Then we have even less reason to believe he is the 7th round savior at TE that some are assuming he will be.

No one is assuming that, and no one assumed it based on the belief that he was related to a former Patriots linebacker. The argument is that there is no value in using draft capital on a blocking specialist TE rookie when the team already has one.

Wozzy · May 2, 2019

reamer said:
I have a very different take on Cowart. He's got great power and is a plus run defender. If you're looking for sacks to rate his results in college, you're barking up the wrong tree. Cowart was one of my favorite picks -- I predicted we'd take him before the draft, and I'm excited to see how he develops here. Have you watched him, or are you going off reports?

I think he can possibly hang around at DE, strength is about all he has. All of his other measurables were poor, not fast enough for a DE not powerful enough to be a DT. Bad mobility, bad explosion, he had better be a master technician...

Let's Play "This was the TE to take"

In the Starting Line-Up

2nd Team Getting Their First Start

2nd Team Getting Their First Start

PatsFans.com Supporter

Pro Bowl Player

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

2nd Team Getting Their First Start

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

Pro Bowl Player

In the Starting Line-Up

In the Starting Line-Up

2nd Team Getting Their First Start

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

2nd Team Getting Their First Start

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

2nd Team Getting Their First Start

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

Similar threads