What we got for Garoppolo

Deus Irae said:

They got a 2nd round pick for JAG. That's all. They didn't get a bunch of players. They got one pick. What they did with that pick is a separate issue. It's the same with the pick they traded away for Brandin Cooks. They didn't get Brandin Cooks for Ryan Ramczyk. They got him for a first round pick.

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I debated this regarding the Chandler Jones compensation with @LJRomanoff and I’m sure he’ll have a rebuttal for you.

TheRainMaker said:

I debated this regarding the Chandler Jones compensation with @LJRomanoff and I’m sure he’ll have a rebuttal for you.

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People who play the "And with the pick, they traded for...." game are almost always covering for the fact that the original haul was either questionable or clearly not enough. They do that by trying to change one transaction into multiple transactions as cover. And there's no need for it, because nobody wins every trade or gets every draft pick right, or gets every free agent signing right, so a loss here and there, or a miss here and there, is to be expected.

And not only that, but sometimes you make trades that you lose in order to win in some other way, or down the road. Arizona just did that. They did a horrible job of it, and probably lost a lot more than they had to, but they chose to take a loss on a trade in order to (hopefully) better the team in the future.

Deus Irae said:

They got a 2nd round pick for JAG. That's all. They didn't get a bunch of players. They got one pick.

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Of course. But it's always interesting to follow the bouncing ball and see what a pick like that ultimately amounts to.

It's a great illustration of how "a pick" ≠ "a rookie drafted at that slot" but simply capital that can be used in various ways. Also, that we sometimes focus on rounds and not enough on position within those rounds (as the erroneous belief that Rosen brought in more in trade than Garappolo shows.)

All I know is that the Pats traded a QB with only one Super Bowl ring to the Bills and got a first round pick in return. Fifteen years later, they trade a quarterback with two Super Bowl rings to San Francisco and get a second round pick.

patchick said:

Of course. But it's always interesting to follow the bouncing ball and see what a pick like that ultimately amounts to.

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Absolutely. It can be interesting to watch how a team maneuvers a pick, or player, in the long term. But what you do with something subsequent to your receiving it does not change the value at the time of acquiring it.

Or, to put it in another way,

• Man spends $5 on 2 loaves of bread that were only worth $4 in the store next door.
• Man sells bread slices at $.25 each, making a major profit off the loaves.

The final profit doesn't mean that the man didn't pay an extra dollar for the loaves at first.


So, if you want to say "Hey, that JAG pick really got maneuvered. Check this out!", that's great. But, when you change the narrative to "Hey, they really won the JAG trade, because of all these maneuvers that were subsequent to the JAG trade", that's a dishonest horse of a different color.

patchick said:

Of course. But it's always interesting to follow the bouncing ball and see what a pick like that ultimately amounts to.

It's a great illustration of how "a pick" ≠ "a rookie drafted at that slot" but simply capital that can be used in various ways. Also, that we sometimes focus on rounds and not enough on position within those rounds (as the erroneous belief that Rosen brought in more in trade than Garappolo shows.)

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Well that response was just entirely too reasonable and considered, so much so it forced the pontification bus to back up and explain itself.

FCB02062 said:

Pats have received 0 contribution from anyone involved in the Garropollo trade. Zero, nada, zilch. You're telling me Josh Rosen, who f#cking sucks and never had a game the quality of Jimmy G's vs Arizon or his half vs Miami, gets a second and a fifth and Jimmy G nets only a 2nd. Sure Bill turned it into 3,458 4th and fifth round picks, but seriously, a player of Jimmy G's caliber (much better than Josh ****ing Rosen) should've netted a player who contributes...can't wait to watch Duke Dawson cover punts..

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Deus Irae said:

When you change the narrative to "Hey, they really won the JAG trade, because of all these maneuvers that were subsequent to the JAG trade", that's a dishonest horse of a different color.

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I thought we got Superbowl appearances and a victory.

FCB02062 said:

Pats have received 0 contribution from anyone involved in the Garropollo trade. Zero, nada, zilch. You're telling me Josh Rosen, who f#cking sucks and never had a game the quality of Jimmy G's vs Arizon or his half vs Miami, gets a second and a fifth and Jimmy G nets only a 2nd.
Sure Bill turned it into 3,458 4th and fifth round picks, but seriously, a player of Jimmy G's caliber (much better than Josh ****ing Rosen) should've netted a player who contributes...can't wait to watch Duke Dawson cover punts..

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Jimmy got a second AND A BACKUP NFL QB

Josh Rosen was a top 10 pick. They had to trade up to get him at 10. Yes 1 1/2 games doesn’t overcome that.

Mack Herron said:

Everyone knows we received a second rounder (boooo), right? But who did we select? Follow along:

PATRIOTS RECEIVE:

CB Duke Dawson (No. 56 overall, 2018)
LB Christian Sam (No. 178 overall, 2018)
RB Damien Harris (No. 87 overall, 2019)
T Yodny Cajuste (No. 101 overall, 2019)
QB Jarrett Stidham (No. 133 overall, 2019)
2020 Fourth-Round Pick From Chicago

The Patriots’ Return For Jimmy Garoppolo Is Too Confusing To Figure Out

Too early to say how it will come out, but do your thoughts change at all?

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After all that, I think I'm ready for a "land war in Asia".

Deus Irae said:

They got a 2nd round pick for JAG. That's all. They didn't get a bunch of players. They got one pick. What they did with that pick is a separate issue. It's the same with the pick they traded away for Brandin Cooks. They didn't get Brandin Cooks for Ryan Ramczyk. They got him for a first round pick.

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And all those players that the pick turned into give specific value to the pick.

In other words “they got a second” and what that means is these specific players.
It takes out the vagueness of what the value of a second is.

TheRainMaker said:

I debated this regarding the Chandler Jones compensation with @LJRomanoff and I’m sure he’ll have a rebuttal for you.

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Indeed I do. I won't bother to repeat it.

MrBigglesWorth said:

I thought we got Superbowl appearances and a victory.

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I said it at the time and it looks like a better prediction every day, Tom Brady will win more SBs after the Jimmy g trade that jimmy g does.
For those who wanted to dump the GOAT your plan has already been defeated.

It was either get what we could get or sign him or tag but no way in hell that was going to happen. Do I like the trade? Not really but I also can’t figure out what else we could have done. Maybe one of those guys will play at some point. Bottom line is jimmy was not going to replace brady

oldrover said:

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Regards,
Chris

LJRomanoff said:

Indeed I do. I won't bother to repeat it.

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Same here.

AndyJohnson said:

I said it at the time and it looks like a better prediction every day, Tom Brady will win more SBs after the Jimmy g trade that jimmy g does.
For those who wanted to dump the GOAT your plan has already been defeated.

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Jimmy G won't win a SB in his career as a starter. I loved the trade even more so now because Jimmy G is very injury prone it appears.

SBLIII said:

Jimmy G won't win a SB in his career as a starter. I loved the trade even more so now because Jimmy G is very injury prone it appears.

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The thing is jimmy could be a hall of famer and still not win more that the GOAT did after 39 years old.
We take it for granted but winning TWO is a giant generational achievement.

I'm probably in the minority, but at this point I don't give a rat's ass what we got for Jimmy G. At the end of the day, him being on or off the team, and what we got for a trade, was completely irrelevant. We went to the SB twice and won once. He went to an out-of-conference team, showed some promise, and then flamed out due to injury. The jury is still out on whether he'll ever amount to anything. I hope he does, because it will be fun to watch, but who cares? We win again! And now we have a whole new shiny rookie QB to speculate over. As far as I'm concerned the draft at all times, no matter if you are picking, trading up, trading down, or whatever, is a total crap shoot. From where I sit, it's all good for the Pats.