2019 UDFA’s

Deus Irae said:

So, are we now going to pretend we don't care about 40 times, after all these years? If JoeJuan had run a 4.29, it's likely that not one of you would be dismissing the time, or comparing it to bust CBs.

Instead of going down hypocrisy lane, maybe we could just stick with the obvious, which is that the numbers are just guides, and not guarantees in any direction, at least until it gets to the point where it's way beyond even the outliers.

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I’ve never cared about 40 times. I’m certainly not alone.

“Numbers are just guides?” Absolutely right. For the 40 that’s even more true because it’s the casual fans’ football favorite metric and it is nearly useless.

ctpatsfan77 said:

Here's the list of all the players drafted under BB in the fifth through seventh rounds:

Draft Finder Query Results | Pro-Football-Reference.com
.

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Cool list.

Zoltan Mesko = 5th round.

scott99 said:

JoeJuan Williams ran a 4.6, really slow for a CB.

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I believe he improved it to a 4.55 (Pro Day) if I’m not mistaken. FWIW..

upstater1 said:

I noticed he actually comes out of his stance to the upright position way too fast in the 40. Any running/performance coach will tell you that you are at your fastest at the point when you are powering up with your legs. Once you are upright, your speed actually decreases.

This is why Usain Bolt is the best in the 40. No one else can sustain his speed while running upright. But the fact is, Bolt is nowhere near the fastest when it comes to top speed in the 40. Top speed is always reached by other runners in the first 3rd.

The thing is, football DBs are never in that position during a football game. They start upright.

A 40 is a good measure for speed if everyone has decent form. What would be much better for everyone is if they measured speed for WRs/CBs from a standing position. That would be revealing. Lineman and maybe running backs and TEs could still start from a classic 40 position.

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Patsgofor4 said:

As others have mentioned, you conveniently ignore that he improved this time to 4.55 (laser timed) at his Pro Day. This is the same time that Sherman ran.

View attachment 23258

You also conveniently left out his agility numbers, which were excellent for his height/size.

Finally, these numbers:

View attachment 23259

Checkmate.

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Checkmate indeed.....NOT. Did you watch any film on the guy ? Besides the lack of speed being a negative, I noticed he is VERY handsy, which with the new PATRIOT’S rule (they only mentioned a play in the SB for the new rule) Williams will be a yellow flag machine. May be able to get away with that in college, but not in the NFL anymore. Also noticed, he has the “doesn’t turn around for the ball disease”, which plagued many bad Patriot’s DBs in the past. I love our DBs now, we are well stocked, therefore I hated the move, missing out on key offensive weapons this team needs, especially in an elite TE class, especially at the top end.

If the Pats were trading up for a CB, the only one worth trading up for at that moment, was Greedy Williams, Who is also big, but a much better athlete who depends on his speed, 6’2” 185 and ran a 4.37. Which would allow him to cover all types of receivers. Nowhere but on the Pat’s draft board, was Williams rated above Greedy Williams. Not surprisingly, Greedy went the pick after JoeJuan.

Look, I’m a Patriot’s fan first, I’ll be rooting for JoeJuan like crazy, I hope he becomes the next Gilmore. But I don’t see it. I am thinking, even at 4.55 speed (improved from 4.6), best case scenario, he switches to safety. Which will be a big need with McCourty and Chung getting up there in years.

But it wasn’t needed THIS year. And I thought it was a bad move, especially with key elite offensive weapons still there and needed.

scott99 said:

Checkmate indeed.....NOT. Did you watch any film on the guy ? Besides the lack of speed being a negative, I noticed he is VERY handsy, which with the new PATRIOT’S rule (they only mentioned a play in the SB for the new rule) Williams will be a yellow flag machine. May be able to get away with that in college, but not in the NFL anymore. Also noticed, he has the “doesn’t turn around for the ball disease”, which plagued many bad Patriot’s DBs in the past. I love our DBs now, we are well stocked, therefore I hated the move, missing out on key offensive weapons this team needs, especially in an elite TE class, especially at the top end.

If the Pats were trading up for a CB, the only one worth trading up for at that moment, was Greedy Williams, Who is also big, but a much better athlete who depends on his speed, 6’2” 185 and ran a 4.37. Which would allow him to cover all types of receivers. Nowhere but on the Pat’s draft board, was Williams rated above Greedy Williams. Not surprisingly, Greedy went the pick after JoeJuan.

Look, I’m a Patriot’s fan first, I’ll be rooting for JoeJuan like crazy, I hope he becomes the next Gilmore. But I don’t see it. I am thinking, even at 4.55 speed (improved from 4.6), best case scenario, he switches to safety. Which will be a big need with McCourty and Chung getting up there in years.

But it wasn’t needed THIS year. And I thought it was a bad move, especially with key elite offensive weapons still there and needed.

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By all accounts Greedy Williams hates to tackle, and he’s not Deion Sanders.

scott99 said:

Checkmate indeed.....NOT. Did you watch any film on the guy ? Besides the lack of speed being a negative, I noticed he is VERY handsy, which with the new PATRIOT’S rule (they only mentioned a play in the SB for the new rule) Williams will be a yellow flag machine. May be able to get away with that in college, but not in the NFL anymore. Also noticed, he has the “doesn’t turn around for the ball disease”, which plagued many bad Patriot’s DBs in the past. I love our DBs now, we are well stocked, therefore I hated the move, missing out on key offensive weapons this team needs, especially in an elite TE class, especially at the top end.

If the Pats were trading up for a CB, the only one worth trading up for at that moment, was Greedy Williams, Who is also big, but a much better athlete who depends on his speed, 6’2” 185 and ran a 4.37. Which would allow him to cover all types of receivers. Nowhere but on the Pat’s draft board, was Williams rated above Greedy Williams. Not surprisingly, Greedy went the pick after JoeJuan.

Look, I’m a Patriot’s fan first, I’ll be rooting for JoeJuan like crazy, I hope he becomes the next Gilmore. But I don’t see it. I am thinking, even at 4.55 speed (improved from 4.6), best case scenario, he switches to safety. Which will be a big need with McCourty and Chung getting up there in years.

But it wasn’t needed THIS year. And I thought it was a bad move, especially with key elite offensive weapons still there and needed.

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It was definitely checkmate. While you are stuck on a bad 40 time he listed the actual football performances he had in the best conference in college football, and playing is what matters most, not t shirt and shorts drills.

Nick Brosette is a nice udfa addition as well (if that is still the topic here..)

Alongside Ozigbo one of best RB options left. Physical runner (lacks some size, power for the role) that can catch and a willing blocker/pass protector. Nice addition to the training camp and likely candidate for PS. Nice good mood character as well..

RB Nick Brossette, LSU (5111, 217 lbs): 2018 was Brossette’s breakout season at LSU, as he lead the team with 240 carries, 1,039 yards and 14 touchdowns.

scott99 said:

Checkmate indeed.....NOT. Did you watch any film on the guy ? Besides the lack of speed being a negative, I noticed he is VERY handsy, which with the new PATRIOT’S rule (they only mentioned a play in the SB for the new rule) Williams will be a yellow flag machine. May be able to get away with that in college, but not in the NFL anymore. Also noticed, he has the “doesn’t turn around for the ball disease”, which plagued many bad Patriot’s DBs in the past. I love our DBs now, we are well stocked, therefore I hated the move, missing out on key offensive weapons this team needs, especially in an elite TE class, especially at the top end.

If the Pats were trading up for a CB, the only one worth trading up for at that moment, was Greedy Williams, Who is also big, but a much better athlete who depends on his speed, 6’2” 185 and ran a 4.37. Which would allow him to cover all types of receivers. Nowhere but on the Pat’s draft board, was Williams rated above Greedy Williams. Not surprisingly, Greedy went the pick after JoeJuan.

Look, I’m a Patriot’s fan first, I’ll be rooting for JoeJuan like crazy, I hope he becomes the next Gilmore. But I don’t see it. I am thinking, even at 4.55 speed (improved from 4.6), best case scenario, he switches to safety. Which will be a big need with McCourty and Chung getting up there in years.

But it wasn’t needed THIS year. And I thought it was a bad move, especially with key elite offensive weapons still there and needed.

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I disagree with almost every point. I'll provide more substantial feedback to support my claims when I get back from church, but JoeJuan Williams was absolutely included in the first round discussion on multiple sites (including NFL.com) and was highly regarded by scouts. I don't know how you can watch his film, which is largely excellent, and conclude that he he's a bad pick. Sorry, don't mean to sound rude. I'll elaborate this afternoon.

TomPatriot said:

I’ve never cared about 40 times. I’m certainly not alone.

“Numbers are just guides?” Absolutely right. For the 40 that’s even more true because it’s the casual fans’ football favorite metric and it is nearly useless.

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Plus, some of these guys get a lot of top notch, hands-on prep for the combine, and other guys don't. So there's a huge disparity in preparation for those drills that cover 5-8 seconds of performance. Knowing how to do a 3 cone, and having practiced it to produce muscle memory for the moment of truth, is a huge advantage.

reamer said:

I don't know how you can watch his film, which is largely excellent, and conclude that he he's a bad pick.

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Because most probably he didn't watch any film until after he saw the absolutely meaningless combine numbers and then went to look for things to confirm his opinion.

The fact that people obsess about absolutely pointless things like the 40 yard time is one of the remaining big mysteries when it comes to NFL fandom. Care enough to look the times up but too lazy to think beyond stats. It is like the definition of cold reading.

reamer said:

I disagree with almost every point. I'll provide more substantial feedback to support my claims when I get back from church, but JoeJuan Williams was absolutely included in the first round discussion on multiple sites (including NFL.com) and was highly regarded by scouts. I don't know how you can watch his film, which is largely excellent, and conclude that he he's a bad pick. Sorry, don't mean to sound rude. I'll elaborate this afternoon.

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I don’t think you’re being rude at all. You’re being very civil and it’s appreciated. This is a debate, I feel one way and you feel the another. Nothing wrong with that.

scott99 said:

I don’t think you’re being rude at all. You’re being very civil and it’s appreciated. This is a debate, I feel one way and you feel the another. Nothing wrong with that.

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By all means . but this is 2019 UDFA thread..

.. of course if no one is willing to discuss UDFA, the thread is up for grabs i guess..

scott99 said:

Checkmate indeed.....NOT. Did you watch any film on the guy ? Besides the lack of speed being a negative, I noticed he is VERY handsy, which with the new PATRIOT’S rule (they only mentioned a play in the SB for the new rule) Williams will be a yellow flag machine. May be able to get away with that in college, but not in the NFL anymore. Also noticed, he has the “doesn’t turn around for the ball disease”, which plagued many bad Patriot’s DBs in the past. I love our DBs now, we are well stocked, therefore I hated the move, missing out on key offensive weapons this team needs, especially in an elite TE class, especially at the top end.

If the Pats were trading up for a CB, the only one worth trading up for at that moment, was Greedy Williams, Who is also big, but a much better athlete who depends on his speed, 6’2” 185 and ran a 4.37. Which would allow him to cover all types of receivers. Nowhere but on the Pat’s draft board, was Williams rated above Greedy Williams. Not surprisingly, Greedy went the pick after JoeJuan.

Look, I’m a Patriot’s fan first, I’ll be rooting for JoeJuan like crazy, I hope he becomes the next Gilmore. But I don’t see it. I am thinking, even at 4.55 speed (improved from 4.6), best case scenario, he switches to safety. Which will be a big need with McCourty and Chung getting up there in years.

But it wasn’t needed THIS year. And I thought it was a bad move, especially with key elite offensive weapons still there and needed.

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My take is the Pats didn’t love the TE draft class after TJ.

The knock on Greedy is that he’s weak and can’t tackle. No one is ever saying that about JJ, if you watch the film. Greedy is also reputed to be “handsy.”

I watched some JJ film and saw him not look for the ball once and look for the ball twice.
So who knows?

Maybe JJ becomes a S or Money. But I’d rather have him with a year or two in the NFL and then making the change, rather than making the switch as a rookie. Better to anticipate a need and prepare for it.

JJ was drafted to do what Rowe couldn’t do - help stop the bigger WRs, namely Schuster, Green, Parker, Jeffrey, etc.

Just saying but some of the best wrs and dbs don’t run a 4.3 40. We have made our picks so let’s see how they work out. This was a good draft, can’t be worse than last year when only one drafted player actually played.

Angelpats said:

Just saying but some of the best wrs and dbs don’t run a 4.3 40. We have made our picks so let’s see how they work out. This was a good draft, can’t be worse than last year when only one drafted player actually played.

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So we have basically 2 new draft classes this year.

Might go 16-0

Angelpats said:

This was a good draft, can’t be worse than last year when only one drafted player actually played.

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Last year's draft was great - without it we don't win the SB; I don't care if it was only one player for now.

luuked said:

Because most probably he didn't watch any film until after he saw the absolutely meaningless combine numbers and then went to look for things to confirm his opinion.

The fact that people obsess about absolutely pointless things like the 40 yard time is one of the remaining big mysteries when it comes to NFL fandom. Care enough to look the times up but too lazy to thing beyond stats. It is like the definition of cold reading.

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Actually, I watch a lot of SEC football, but thanks for assuming you know me. Also I watched a lot of JoeJuan Williams highlights the minute I heard he was linked to the Pats. There are several reasons I didn’t like the move and I listed them above.

scott99 said:

Checkmate indeed.....NOT. Did you watch any film on the guy ? Besides the lack of speed being a negative, I noticed he is VERY handsy, which with the new PATRIOT’S rule (they only mentioned a play in the SB for the new rule) Williams will be a yellow flag machine. May be able to get away with that in college, but not in the NFL anymore. Also noticed, he has the “doesn’t turn around for the ball disease”, which plagued many bad Patriot’s DBs in the past. I love our DBs now, we are well stocked, therefore I hated the move, missing out on key offensive weapons this team needs, especially in an elite TE class, especially at the top end.

If the Pats were trading up for a CB, the only one worth trading up for at that moment, was Greedy Williams, Who is also big, but a much better athlete who depends on his speed, 6’2” 185 and ran a 4.37. Which would allow him to cover all types of receivers. Nowhere but on the Pat’s draft board, was Williams rated above Greedy Williams. Not surprisingly, Greedy went the pick after JoeJuan.

Look, I’m a Patriot’s fan first, I’ll be rooting for JoeJuan like crazy, I hope he becomes the next Gilmore. But I don’t see it. I am thinking, even at 4.55 speed (improved from 4.6), best case scenario, he switches to safety. Which will be a big need with McCourty and Chung getting up there in years.

But it wasn’t needed THIS year. And I thought it was a bad move, especially with key elite offensive weapons still there and needed.

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2011 Combine results:

Prince Amukamara 4.38. 10 year CB1, book it.

Ras-I Dowling 4.40. Great value, elite speed for a corner his size.

Richard Sherman 4.54. Lacks top end speed, stiff hips. May have difficulty covering top WRs due to lack of that extra gear.


Plus: Don’t gloss over the fact that Greedy is 185 lbs vs Joejuan at 211. If you make Greedy gain 20-25 lbs, he is no longer a 4.38 guy. Greedy is a big, but mainly tall, CB while Joejuan is a BIG CB. There is a difference. 185, its unlikely that Greedy will be able to cover guys like Kelce and Ertz effectively. That extra 2 inches and 25 lbs makes a huge difference in that regard and as a huge Pats fan you know that they have been abused by athletic TEs on multiple occasions. Chung has been good, not great, in that role but isn’t getting any faster with age.

Yes, I am aware of Joejuan’s tendency to be overly aggressive and prone to DPI. How did that work out in 2014 with pre-homicide Browner? Those bad habits can (likely) fixed with good coaching mixed with a healthy dose of fear of the coaching GOAT. Just bc Hobbs couldn’t learn the correct techniques as a young CB, doesn’t mean that Williams won’t.

There was one elite, likely can’t miss TE prospect in this years draft and he was gone at pick 8.

Finally:
William Belichick’s CB analysis skills plus hours upon hours of film review and background checks by Pats scouts >> scott99’s CB analysis skills and 43 minutes of youtube film review on his MacBook Air with PornHub bookmarked.



PS. This all could have been avoided if you just decided against posting a snarky, disparaging comment about one of my good friend Bill’s favorite players in this draft through an ever-so-clever alteration of his first name. Nobody circles the wagons like patsfans.com posters (minus a couple of well known miserable pukes who are fueled at all times by negativity).

OT Calvin Anderson received his degree from Rice in four years before his year at Texas--a double major in mathematical economics and religion. This is a heck of a brainy roookie crop.