Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

TB_Helmet · Mar 3, 2019

If the Patriots had moved to St Louis and become the Stallions and then won six Super Bowls, I’d probably be a lot less happy than I am right now.

maust · Mar 3, 2019

Bill Lee said:
Good point. They were to become the St Louis Stallions:

St. Louis Stallions - Wikipedia

That wiki page is FOS. 'Kraft initiated a hostile takeover..." my ass. Otis tipped RKK upside down and shook out every dime he could. Kraft paid the highest price for any team up to that time.

LJRomanoff · Mar 3, 2019

TB_Helmet said:
If the Patriots had moved to St Louis and become the Stallions and then won six Super Bowls, I’d probably be a lot less happy than I am right now.

What if the Patriots had moved to St. Louis before Georgia Frontiere had the chance to move the Rams, so she moved them to Boston instead? Maybe this would be the Boston Rams board and that team would have Belichick and six titles.

maust · Mar 3, 2019

LJRomanoff said:
What if the Patriots had moved...

What none of us knew at the time, other than Kraft, was the Pats weren't going anywhere without buying out that lease. Hell, I remember headlines at the time Kraft bought the team that proclaimed them the NE Permanents. From the moment they came into being until then there was always a legit fear they'd move.

NormZauchin · Mar 3, 2019

LJRomanoff said:
What if the Patriots had moved to St. Louis before Georgia Frontiere had the chance to move the Rams, so she moved them to Boston instead? Maybe this would be the Boston Rams board and that team would have Belichick and six titles.

Boston/Massachusetts would never have coughed up the public money that St. Louis did to lure Ms. Frontiere to the Gateway City. By the way, the city of St. Louis, the county of Clayton and the state of Missouri are still paying off $144 million in debt and maintenance costs, and will be doing so through the year 2021.

scout · Mar 3, 2019

NormZauchin said:
Boston/Massachusetts would never have coughed up the public money that St. Louis did to lure Ms. Frontiere to the Gateway City. By the way, the city of St. Louis, the county of Clayton and the state of Missouri are still paying off $144 million in debt and maintenance costs, and will be doing so through the year 2021.

Maybe the Olympic organization should have paid attention to this?

QuantumMechanic · Mar 3, 2019

NormZauchin said:
Boston/Massachusetts would never have coughed up the public money that St. Louis did to lure Ms. Frontiere to the Gateway City. By the way, the city of St. Louis, the county of Clayton and the state of Missouri are still paying off $144 million in debt and maintenance costs, and will be doing so through the year 2021.

If it weren't for Tom Finneran MA may well have done exactly that. For all his other faults I'll always be grateful for him for stopping any attempts to spend public money on NE (aside from the Rt 1 work which Kraft had to repay over time).

cmasspatsfan · Mar 3, 2019

So you're saying Goody would have taken the Stallions first two picks?

Ice_Ice_Brady · Mar 3, 2019

Actual Pats Fan said:
"Lowest selling team gear" was one of the lame excuses for Orthwein/Kraft raping our history and fan base, in 1993. In the wake of four inevitably horrible, losing seasons after the foolish release of Flutie, and the inevitable, galactic financial collapse of the Sullivan/Kiam ownership.

Kraft employed typical corporate ignorance to justify his thinly veiled hatred of Sullivan by promoting the f.e. as "New, Different, Exciting, The Look Of The Nineties!!!"

He just got lucky with Brady

And used Tom & Bill's success to justify everything he did.

I’m starting to come around on the uniform change, @Actual Pats Fan. I think they went too far and a modified version with the same concept would have been more appropriate in the mid-90s (almost all teams make minor changes for good reason.). However, at this point, there is so much history with these new unis, could the team really go back to the old ones?

LJRomanoff · Mar 3, 2019

cmasspatsfan said:
So you're saying Goody would have taken the Stallions first two picks?

Probably not, since they'd be the Orthwein/Parcells Stallions and not the Kraft/Belichick Stallions. Meanwhile, Belichick ends up head coaching Kraft's expansion Boston Revolution in 1996 (Kraft getting an expansion team means the Jacksonville Jaguars never exist.) Belichick drafts Brady as planned but he doesn't have to wait for Bledsoe's injury, which now never happens since he's in St. Louis and not playing the Jets in Week Two 2001. With St. Louis unavailable the Rams never leave L.A., and therefore the Chargers never leave San Diego.

blackglass3 · Mar 3, 2019

If the Patriots end up in StL, they'd have ended up leaving just like the Rams did. The Edward Jones dome is a dump, and the team would have been playing third fiddle to the Cardinals and the Blues. StL isn't a football town. StL isn't much of an anything town, besides the Cardinals and that horrid **** they shouldn't be legally allowed to call pizza.

Antdawg · Mar 3, 2019

wheresmosi said:
Second story I have seen Kraft was recorded just twice, both times involving the 58 year old owner and/or the 45 year old manager (the latter of which also accompanied him to KC, apparently). His visits were also back to back, and reading it, it seems there is only a video of him paying anything the second time.

Several interesting faxcts--only evidence of two visits, right next to each other, only pay (maybe) the second time, and older women for whom there would be no suspicion they were trafficked. It might be wishful thinking, but one wonders if he went in the first time, got enticed by some action, that brought him back the next day, paid, and then decided to cool his jets after that. It would still be shameful and embarrassing, but makes him look much less creepy, etc. than what the narrative has been. Early on, I wondered if he was set up. It now seems clear that was not the case, but it is conceivable that his first visit went further than expected, whetted his appetite leading to an impulsive return the next day, and then he came to his senses and backed off. Very possibly not, but the set of facts makes this a reasonable consideration, IMO.

Some of us have been saying this from the beginning...

Antdawg · Mar 3, 2019

venecol said:
How do you know (aside from speculating or sheer judgment) that sex was performed to get cash? Because the cops say so?

Considering the cops have grossly overstated everything about this ordeal thus far and the questionable means they used to get us here in the first place, I think the Devin McCourty approach has been the correct one from the beginning. "Let it play out."

Palm Beach Pats Fan · Mar 3, 2019

Antdawg said:
Considering the cops have grossly overstated everything about this ordeal thus far...

Just what have they overstated? I am curious.

Jupiter FL police arrested 25 Johns. These arrests emerged out of a human trafficking investigation that is ongoing and is being handled by Federal authorities. Why? Because the Feds have jurisdiction on issues of crimes of an interstate and/or international scope.

The Florida DA filled us in on the issues related to their jurisdiction. No backtracking, no revisions no alteration of the facts were ever brought up, to my knowledge.

The only overstatement of anything, that I am aware of, was the report by Adam Schefter of "bigger fish to be named." That was BS, but not any BS from the police.

Deus Irae · Mar 3, 2019

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:
Just what have they overstated? I am curious.

Jupiter FL police arrested 25 Johns. These arrests emerged out of a human trafficking investigation that is ongoing and is being handled by Federal authorities. Why? Because the Feds have jurisdiction on issues of crimes of an interstate and/or international scope.

The Florida DA filled us in on the issues related to their jurisdiction. No backtracking, no revisions no alteration of the facts were ever brought up, to my knowledge.

The only overstatement of anything, that I am aware of, was the report by Adam Schefter of "bigger fish to be named." That was BS, but not any BS from the police.

Well, for one thing, the gov't trying to tie the johns to the trafficking was lousy PR and just plain stupid.

captain stone · Mar 3, 2019

LJRomanoff said:
This doesn't make sense. Wasn't Orthwein's intention to rename the team once they were in St. Louis? There was never going to be a St. Louis Patriots, so why would changing the Patriots logo make any difference once they were moved?

Perhaps he had hoped that the uniform (and especially helmet) change would alienate the fan base over the edge of no longer caring about the team, thus making the move to St Louis easier to rationalize?

MassPats38 · Mar 3, 2019

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:
Jupiter FL police arrested 25 Johns. These arrests emerged out of a human trafficking investigation that is ongoing and is being handled by Federal authorities. Why? Because the Feds have jurisdiction on issues of crimes of an interstate and/or international scope.

Has there been a report of federal authorities involved in this case? I have seen articles describing federal investigations generally into human trafficking in other cases, but everything I have read seems to indicate this investigation is Florida only.

Generally, the feds take over the investigation as they want the traffickers. States then get the scraps with misdemeanor charges after the big fish are in custody. I haven't read about any FBI or HSI investigations here, nor federal charges, so I would be curious to see the article if you have that. That would be a weird approach.

Palm Beach Pats Fan · Mar 3, 2019

MassPats38 said:
Has there been a report of federal authorities involved in this case?

Yes, it is mentioned in every press conference,

One source:
Florida Attorney General Ashley Moody noted that four sheriff’s agencies — including those in Martin, Palm Beach, Indian River and Orange counties — were involved in the investigation, as well as three municipal police agencies. The case also involves various federal agencies.

Authorities investigate human-trafficking at area day spas

MassPats38 · Mar 3, 2019

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:
Yes, it is mentioned in every press conference,

One source:
Florida Attorney General Ashley Moody noted that four sheriff’s agencies — including those in Martin, Palm Beach, Indian River and Orange counties — were involved in the investigation, as well as three municipal police agencies. The case also involves various federal agencies.

Authorities investigate human-trafficking at area day spas

I suspect that is as a resource, not as an investigating agency or federal case. The use of the term 'involves' versus 'investigation' is likely not an accident.

I have never seen a federal investigation trumpeting misdemeanor arrests that might compromise the 20 to life charges. Federal agencies would be stomping State task forces if they went public with an investigation ongoing, especially those State agencies claiming "it is tough to make trafficking charges stick" as the linked article seems to suggest. Feds prosecute those charges all the time, and successfully.

venecol · Mar 4, 2019

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:
Yes, it is mentioned in every press conference,

One source:
Florida Attorney General Ashley Moody noted that four sheriff’s agencies — including those in Martin, Palm Beach, Indian River and Orange counties — were involved in the investigation, as well as three municipal police agencies. The case also involves various federal agencies.

Authorities investigate human-trafficking at area day spas

"authorities said Tuesday in announcing arrests in a large-scale human-trafficking ring."
8 months investigating, 4 county sheriffs, 3 municipal police agencies yielded: 2 arrests and "up six potential victims of trafficking, including two who were cooperating with authorities."

The only big number: they arrested 200 johns on solicitation.

Color me unimpressed. There's something fishy going on and it has little to do with human trafficking.

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