Vince Wilfork’s unique place in Patriots history

sieglo said:

Mankind had his chances. He should have played better.

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From 2005-2013 Brady should have played better as well.

robertweathers said:

From 2005-2013 Brady should have played better as well.

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Then there's the whole "Mankins played all of 2011 with a torn ACL" thing.

Elijah said:

Then there's the whole "Mankins played all of 2011 with a torn ACL" thing.

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Football is 53 players and coaches.

Singling out Mankins as the main reason for not winning Super Bowls is ridiculous

PatsFanInVa said:

This. I think we saw this year that the Pats' travail in pass-rushing were always going to be there. Flowers is still a must-sign (or at least a big loss if we can't)... but why, if you go by regular season alone? Quick, was he a top-10 leader in sacks in 18? Top 20? No, Trey was 34th in solo sacks.

Turns out that "**** Pats Fans say" turns out to be right... we get pressure, not necessarily sacks (we were limping along with something like 1/2 the sacks of the pack (not the leaders of the pack) last I saw, up to the playoffs.

But regardless of how many times we "got home" in SB 53, ask anybody where BB got that beautiful ring, and the answer's going to be "He went to Jared." And part of that beautiful romcom was a running gag about bringing Flowers. See what I did there.

Why all these labored puns about Flowers and 53, when we're talking about Big Vince? The answer is, we have NEVER put up big sack numbers in this era. We never will either, despite the impressive D-line work this post-season. Blitzing has always been, and will always be, one tool in the tool box -- and we'll do it without bringing the house and potentially giving up the big play.

BOOORRRRRINNNNNNG. Not to mention all those years playing primarily 3-4. And nobody was better at it than VW. I'd say he has a special place in modern Pats D-line history, except he probably takes up 2 places.

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LOL, " He went to Jared"

I wasn’t trying to make this a Mankins bashing thread and certainly 100% not one to diminish Wilfork, which for some reason has happened. But now that we are down the rabbit hole:

Anyone who thinks Wilfork’s lack of sacks means anything really needs to understand the very basics of this sport. Wilfork was an absolutely critical player and probably top 5 since 2001. This guy was 100% deserving of his praise and in fact deserving of more accolades, but he was more of a team concept player and also went up against some tough competition like Ngata which may have cost him some first team all-pros and maybe even Canton due to that.

I understand why people are frustrated about Mankins. Though we should acknowledge that he played through some brutal injuries, including the 2011 postseason, he was also the highest paid guard in the league for some time. And he did seem to, at the very least, fail to be the solution during some huge losses (if he wasn’t one of the problems, that is.) When he is supposed to be your best offensive player outside of Brady, it’s reasonable to expect superstar games when it matters most. If Belichick had just signed an average guard and used that money elsewhere, would they have another ring? We’ll never know, but it seems like one of the more logical hypotheticals.

robertweathers said:

Football is 53 players and coaches.

Singling out Mankins as the main reason for not winning Super Bowls is ridiculous

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He was certainly a weak link in the loss but putting a guy out on the field with a torn ACL can only be blamed on the staff. Plus, as you said, others played like **** too.

As with all of our Brady era Super Bowl losses, the offense did in fact take (or already had) the lead in the 4th and the defense blew it. But at the same time (really only applies to the Giants losses) you can't blame the defense when you only score 14, 17 points.

Too many moving parts to put it on one guy or even one unit.

signbabybrady said:

He's not eligible yet.

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I meant on the lists of who people see getting into the Pats HOF. I could be very wrong. I liked Mankins; I don't get the shade being thrown his way.

Elijah said:

He was certainly a weak link in the loss but putting a guy out on the field with a torn ACL can only be blamed on the staff. Plus, as you said, others played like **** too.

As with all of our Brady era Super Bowl losses, the offense did in fact take (or already had) the lead in the 4th and the defense blew it. But at the same time (really only applies to the Giants losses) you can't blame the defense when you only score 14, 17 points.

Too many moving parts to put it on one guy or even one unit.

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It was nice to see the guys who the Patriots paid like superstars make the big plays in SB53. Gronkowski, Hightower, and Gilmore all stepped up and made a huge difference in the biggest game (and throughout the playoffs.). Mason is another guy paid near the top of the market who was outstanding, even containing Donald 1-on-1 at times.

Nikolai said:

I meant on the lists of who people see getting into the Pats HOF. I could be very wrong. I liked Mankins; I don't get the shade being thrown his way.

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Easy. If you didn't win a SB that means you sucked and are a loser. It's beyond dumb

robertweathers said:

Easy. If you didn't win a SB that means you sucked and are a loser. It's beyond dumb

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Even then, there's a double standard. I feel like a lot more people would be better with Moss getting in than Mankins.

Nikolai said:

I meant on the lists of who people see getting into the Pats HOF. I could be very wrong. I liked Mankins; I don't get the shade being thrown his way.

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Gotcha. Those lists are long and getting longer and OL aren't going to get a lot of love. Hopefully his time comes because he deserves it.

Nikolai said:

Even then, there's a double standard. I feel like a lot more people would be better with Moss getting in than Mankins.

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Absolutely. The anti Mankins crowd only want to remember some bad pass protection plays.

The NE Moss lovers like his stats but they don't want to remember his *****ing in 08 and 09 and quitting on the team in 2010.

I have to admit here that I was unhappy with Mankins more than any other reason, because we were losing/then lost Mankins. For a couple of years there I felt compelled to refer to him as an overrated rodeo clown. Of course, that's what happens on the internet. IRL, I'd be saying "please don't eat me."

robertweathers said:

Absolutely. The anti Mankins crowd only want to remember some bad pass protection plays.

The NE Moss lovers like his stats but they don't want to remember his *****ing in 08 and 09 and quitting on the team in 2010.

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I love me some Moss despite his flaws but if one thinks he is more deserving of a red jacket than Mankins then he is flat wrong.

robertweathers said:

Absolutely. The anti Mankins crowd only want to remember some bad pass protection plays.

The NE Moss lovers like his stats but they don't want to remember his *****ing in 08 and 09 and quitting on the team in 2010.

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Receivers get a pass. As long as they catch it, we're usually good with a wealth of sins, over time. They're well-known head cases, every goddam one of them. The ones who aren't are glandular freaks playing above their natural ability level. Okay, then there's the 01-04 receivers who were just good enough to keep Tom F Brady in the 28-mid 30s TD range if I recall correctly. They knew they might make more when they left NE, cashing in on the ring... but I don't remember hearing them trying to dominate media with their greatness... that's because they were just good enough to not make NE not win.

After Caldwell established that a QB can stare down a receiver, but a receiver can't stare down a defender, and bless his heart, every photo looked like that was his strategy, the floodgates opened. Fast forward through the boy in the bubble helmet, the alligator-armed career turnaround story, Ocho Stinko, and a variety of other hits and misses, and what you find is that on the Pats' budget -- that is, spending enough at receiver but not overspending on it -- that 1 amazing Brady/Welker/Moss year was a perfect storm, and an outlier. It's best regarded as a year of overreaction to "Heh heh, their number 1 receiver is Reche Caldwell" that hit on just about every response (not including the mysterious draft nadir of the Chad Jackson pick).

Since then we've taken it in stride when a move at receiver fouls up. Maybe Josh Gordon can get his head straight, maybe he can't. Maybe he'll be saddened and humbled by watching SB53 from home. Maybe he banged his head against the wall every play of the game, as he sat with friends and family in the surreal process of earning a ring but not playing. Maybe he's so hungry and humble now that he will tear azz through the league mercilessly next season. Maybe he won't be on the roster.

One thing I think is certain, if he's back next year and begins to attain Patriots greatness, the clock starts ticking on his way toward WR mental issues. It's just par for the course. (Rinse/repeat for your favorite potential free agent WR splash.)

robertweathers said:

It's beyond absurd and shows how some posters have short memories and don't know football.

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Wilfork elevated his game on the biggest stages. On the other hand, Mankins’ presence in those games seemed to diminish. That’s just my opinion. There are plenty of HOF players who played down in the playoffs. Guys like Manning and Marino. I guess on that basis Mankins shouldn’t be neglected for the Pats HOF. But comparing him to Big Vince just ain’t right.

zimmy said:

I feel sorry for Logan Mankins. Was drafted in 2005 when the Pats were champs and was traded just before the 2014 season when the Pats became champs again.

Played 9 seasons here, was an absolute stalwart, true pro and a great player and had nothing to show for it. I hope he makes the Pats HoF.

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Apparently the fence is mended with BB; Mankins did the ceremonial locker room door opening before a recent game in Gillette (can't recall which game it was).

Here’s an interesting question, would people rather have Seymour or Wilfork?

Froob said:

Here’s an interesting question, would people rather have Seymour or Wilfork?

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Seymour.

BB's credo has always been "Do your job!" and VW was the epitome of that. The job wasn't always glamorous and often very sacrificial, requiring a maturity and resolve to stick to the job play after play, game after game and year after year. It's kind of fitting he's the lone other bridge between the title trios besides Brady.

Regards,
Chris