Josh Gordon Stepping Away?

BradyFTW! said:

What I think it basically comes down to is it shouldn't be controversial to observe that the Patriots are a bad football team right now, and barring a dramatic turnaround that probably would've already happened if it was coming, they're not going to do anything in the playoffs. None of us want that to be the case, but it is what it is. It's an annoyance that simply observing that will get you labeled a bunch of dumb **** by a particular subset of posters here who almost never have anything meaningful to contribute to discussion anyway because they're fundamentally incapable of acknowledging the team's flaws.

Acknowledging that we're watching a team with little talent suffering from 4+ years of bad drafting that's resulted in an old, inconsistent, poorly constructed roster doesn't make you a bad fan. It makes you an honest observer of reality, and if you're pissed off about it because it amounts to wasting one of the few years we have left with the GOAT then... well, it should piss you off. Yet the people who've observed that have taken so much crap here that a lot seem to be fed up with this place in general.

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Couldn’t have said it better myself.

KontradictioN said:

I'm fine with expecting something good to happen and then being wrong when I have reason for it. This team gives me no reason for it. This is 2009 all over again, IMO.

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I think I understand where you're coming from, so I won't quibble too hard on semantics. But NO reason for it? That seems too definitive for my tastes.

Pat the Pats Fan said:

Darn, one game too many, Pats don't get a pick back.

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Ur kidding me.

maust1013 said:

So trading "forced passes ****" for poor routes and drops then?
I'm thinking Patterson and Dorsett are going to be sharing Gordon's snaps

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I think anything that inherently forces us to use all of our offensive weapons is a benefit (obviouslt not to say I'm happy about how Gordon worked out). Tom had stopped forcing it to Gordon recently but we still weren't using everyone the way we could.

bigballas said:

actually, sorry man.

in 2016, edelman had 5 drops on 159 targets

in 2018, edelman has 8 drops in 92 targets....

he is dropping passes at a much higher reate. he leads the league in dropped passes this year.

drop passes is not an exclusive inverse of catch rate

also his 2016 catch rate was 69.3%, and its 68.5% so far this year

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I'm not sure where you're getting your catch rate info, but ...

I have pro-football reference open in another tab right now. They list Edelman in 2016 as
... 98 receptions/159 tgts, 61.6% catch rate

ESPN is open in yet another tab. They list Edelman in 2016 as
... 98 receptions/158 tgts. They don't list catch rate, but that works out to 62.0%.

In any case focusing on his drops is missing the point. Edelman at age 32 and coming off an ACL tear) is still catching significantly more of what's being thrown his way than he did in in 2016, in spite of the drops. His 2018 ypc is the identical to 2016 and 2015. His receptions/game and receiving yds/game are both slightly higher than in 2016.

And yet there seems to be a consensus that Edelman is somehow noticeably shi ttier this season than he was before. I don't have a f**king clue where that comes from.

I mean, do people really rely on the vaunted "eyeball test" or common wisdom over hard data so much that they don't even bother to check stats for context, and would much prefer to cherry pick ONE stat that confirms their bias?

KontradictioN said:

Guy has the personality of a door knob.

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Wait, who's the door knob? Is it me, Andy, or Fapaport?

A Defiant Goose said:

I think anything that inherently forces us to use all of our offensive weapons is a benefit (obviouslt not to say I'm happy about how Gordon worked out). Tom had stopped forcing it to Gordon recently but we still weren't using everyone the way we could.

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That is only a good thing if Brady doesn't start forcing it to Edelman or Gronk instead. If this actually leads to a less predictable offense, it can be mitigated, but in general there's never a positive side to losing a player, unless that player was a locker room problem (which from all accounts, Gordon was not).

Josh recused himself from the playoffs.

patsinthesnow said:

I think there is a fair middle ground to be had.

2018 Patriots:

7th best record
11th in PPG differential
9th in DVOA
5-2 record vs. winning teams

Seems fair to say the Pats are a good, definitely not great & certainly flawed team. Bad? You can see how that doesn’t really make sense objectively.

Most fans would admit this team doesn’t stack up to others from years past.

EDIT: Bad as recently as two weeks is a fair claim. If you meant that, my bad.

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There's basically three responses to that. One is that they've lost 3 of their last 4 games. This is how it is with NFL teams: what you did 2 months ago matters very little when discussing the quality of the team in the present. The Panthers started the season 6-2, doesn't mean they're good. What really matters at this time of year is seeding and trajectory. Did you set yourself up for a bye? If I'm the Chiefs or the Rams, I'm unhappy with the last few weeks but at least you still know you control your own destiny for the #1 seed and the easiest possible path through the playoffs. By virtue of that, your early-season success is still paying dividends. Conversely, there's the trajectory question: is your team getting better as the season goes along? If it is, then some early season stumbles are okay, because you're building toward something and peaking at the right time. In the Pats', the answer to both questions is a resounding no. They didn't do well enough early in the season to give themselves any buffer room now re: seeding, and they're getting worse rather than getting better.

The second, related response is that most of this was done leaning heavily on Josh Gordon, which was a gamble that is now over. 3 is that these numbers are all disappointments for a team with Tom Brady on it, who even in a down year is still a top 5 quarterback, and that alone should push and has pushed the team upward in all of these metrics. Unfortunately, you can count the number of true every-game difference makers on this team on one hand.

Someone call Kenbrell Thompkins or whatever the heck his name was.

Well now I know what Gordon does on the Pats.
As many know I was clamoring for it for years.
Sucks to be wrong.

KontradictioN said:

Bingo. I didn't see "Dorito Dink" complaining last year when I was dumping on the idiots. When the team is playing well, I'm high on them. When they're not, I call it like it is. Also, shame on you, @Joker for rating that post positively. You know better than that.

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What "dumping" are you referring to last year? Not sure how that's relevant but I wasn't around much last year, but am discussing now and disagree with your righteous tone on how people should view the Patriots. Also, you continue to make strawman arguments and act like you defeated them. Nobody is saying the team is without flaw. Nobody is saying the Patriots are going to win the Super Bowl. My argument has been on your crap categorization of fans who are remaining positive, think the team still has a shot, pointing out that other teams have flaws yet they do so because they're "bandwagon" fans who "can't see reality."

Also, your Jags comparison is so lame and irrelevant. That was 3 games into the season and they have no track record. Better yet, no Patriots fan (even ones that aren't counting them out yet) have ever said the Pats have no flaws like your comparison.

The Patriots are still eyeing a first round bye and have repeated success with BB/TB. Also, the playing field has very clearly evened out toward the end of the year, with no real team legitimizing themselves as a clear favorite. Considering all of those factors, a lot of us don't think the Pats are out of it. You'll misconstrue this post as an overzealous/head in the sand post by a fan who thinks things are rainbows but that's just par for the course for you recently.

Headline late night February 3 2019

41 year old Tom Brady throws touchdown winning past to 41 year old Randy Moss

KontradictioN said:

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

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If we're being honest, a third consecutive SB appearance (and four out of five) with a 41yo qb is already such a preposterously low-probability event that I was already there before the Gordon news. With or without him, Pats were going to need to raise their play to the level of competition regardless.

But if anybody can coax a playoff win or two out of a roster long on years and short on talent/health, it's BB/TB. If there's any upside, it's that any remaining expectations have vanished, and imo the pressure is now 100% off the Pats.

betterthanthealternative said:

The NFL needs to have entirely different policies for PET's and addiction issues. To treat them as the same thing is ignorant and destructive to both the League and individual players.

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Gordon has had more chances than anybody in NFL history.

And, now just before his first playoff game ever he bails out. Everything that has happened to Gordon he has done to himself. Nobody is forcing him to smoke weed. He has been coddled and played the victim.

maust1013 said:

All the empathy of a stone wall.
There's a life in the balance but hey, "Screw him for what he did to my football team"
smdh

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As if this guy hasn't gotten empathy? How many 2nd chances has he been given? 10?

And stop over dramatizing with the life in the balance crap. He most likely got popped as usual. It's a simple rule and he somehow thinks he is above it. Weak.

maineman209 said:

I'm not sure where you're getting your catch rate info, but ...

I have pro-football reference open in another tab right now. They list Edelman in 2016 as
... 98 receptions/159 tgts, 61.6% catch rate

ESPN is open in yet another tab. They list Edelman in 2016 as
... 98 receptions/158 tgts. They don't list catch rate, but that works out to 62.0%.

In any case focusing on his drops is missing the point. Edelman at age 32 and coming off an ACL tear) is still catching significantly more of what's being thrown his way than he did in in 2016, in spite of the drops. His 2018 ypc is the identical to 2016 and 2015. His receptions/game and receiving yds/game are both slightly higher than in 2016.

And yet there seems to be a consensus that Edelman is somehow noticeably shi ttier this season than he was before. I don't have a f**king clue where that comes from.

I mean, do people really rely on the vaunted "eyeball test" or common wisdom over hard data so much that they don't even bother to check stats for context, and would much prefer to cherry pick ONE stat that confirms their bias?

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sorry you're right. i had the 159 targets right but took the catch rate from 2015 mistakenly.

using nfl stats for dropped passes..using pro football reference for targets

i agree that he's not at a ****tier tier, but he's not the same as before in terms of burst. and he has definitely had some key drops.

randomk1 said:

As if this guy hasn't gotten empathy? How many 2nd chances has he been given? 10?

And stop over dramatizing with the life in the balance crap. He most likely got popped as usual. It's a simple rule and he somehow thinks he is above it. Weak.

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Sign of the times.

Everyone's drama is our drama too.

This team is more like 2005 then 2009. 2009 was roster full of malcontents who didn’t care which isnt the case this year. It’s like 2005 where we’re beat up, getting old, and lacking talent.