Marcus Cannon

robertweathers said:

Hes better than a JAG. Moving on.

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robertweathers said:

I think that investigation needs to be played out. Either way hes not worth $7.55 of cap space. Hes hasn't performed at that level to justify it.

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He isn’t getting 7.5 of new money and when he is healthy he is certainly worth that.

maineman209 said:

I think the point was that it's not prudent to cut a key starter who's under contract before you have an adequate (or superior) replacement in hand, especially if the position is thin to begin with.

I don't think that the Pats have enough leverage in this situation at the moment to hardball Cannon into a pay cut.

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Pretty much, yeah. If the Pats demand he takes a paycut, the rational response on his end will be to call their bluff and refuse, because as you stated they have no leverage. And if it turns out that the Pats aren't bluffing then he can just keep the $2.8M of his 2019 cap hit he already pocketed, go sign somewhere else for >$5M on a longer-term deal with more guaranteed money than is left on his past deal*, and come out of the whole situation ahead while the Pats are left with zero signed tackles with NFL experience. Cannon has virtually no incentive to accept a paycut in strict monetary terms - the only way he would is if he's feeling benevolent or if he's irrationally risk-averse or if he loves playing here so much that he's willing to leave many millions of dollars on the table to stay.

*given the tackle contracts of the past few offseasons, it can be readily assumed he could do this.

As a side note, this is also why the Pats usually draft a year or more before free agency creates a need. When you have a player who's already played for you who's ready to cheaply step into a guy's role, you have a lot more leverage to demand concessions. In negotiating terms it's called BATNA: best alternative to non-agreement. If your BATNA is good, then everyone at the table knows you can afford to walk and suffer little for it. If your BATNA sucks, then everyone at the table knows you pretty much have to make an agreement and have no leverage to walk. When negotiations fall apart, it's usually because at least one person in a negotiation has a BATNA that's better than the worst possible agreement another party would take, or when one or more parties severely misjudges another's BATNA. For example, when Malcolm Butler's agent turned down the Patriots' extension offer, I think they thought they had more leverage than they did, because they didn't realize that Belichick's BATNA was "give that contract to Stephon Gilmore instead, and have both you and him for a year".

I suspect that at least part of drafting Wynn was about ensuring that the team had a suitable BATNA when it came to both Brown's free agency and potentially deciding to move on from Cannon, but a serious and untimely injury torpedoed that.

farn said:

No. I do not. Always want to win.

I think it’s a legit question : is there enough here to build upon and win it all or are the key contributors no longer able to make it to the championship ? I don’t know the answer. I suspect BB has a better idea.

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We are leading our division and working toward a first round bye.
Of course there is enough to work with.
Jesus you want to rebuild?

KontradictioN said:

You're constructing a straw man and I suspect it's because you know you're defending two tackles that haven't played as well as they should be or have.

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Who is defending two tackles? I'm hammering Cannon. I think Brown and the IOL have played well overall.

KontradictioN said:

I've never made the claim at the OL as a whole is ****ty. If you believe that I did make that case, you're more than welcome to quote me.

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You came off and citing the reason Tom has played 18 years is because of the quick passing game. I think thats part of it but the other part of it has been good o-line play with some years better than others.

KontradictioN said:

I've merely made the case that Brown is boom or bust and Cannon has regressed. Therefore, the tackles are a liability. You decided to use sacks and pressures, when you clearly know better to judge an OL in front of Tom Brady by that, as a response.

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Brown was s strength 3 weeks ago now hes a liability? He played like dog **** in Pitt and missed a couple of blocks vs MIA but prior to that he was playing pretty damn well.

I really don't know why sacks and pressures allowed can't be used as meaningful stats to judge the overall play of a line. How do you propose we measure the value of a o line?

Froob said:

They weren't great in Pittsburgh, but played well enough to get the win (getting called for holding five times is bs). Hope Wynn is ready to go next season, sucks Garcia suddenly got sick and we lost him and now Wynn tears his Achilles.

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er eh what???

Boomer B said:

I was just showing how an o line with virtually the same players can jump from 21 sacks with a great QB to 47 sacks with a mediocre QB.

The o line last year is obviously different then the one from 2007 - 2009. Also, the game has changed since then as well.

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Sure. Its a combination of factors. Tom is one of the best of all time at getting the ball out, calling the right protections, sliding around the pocket, etc. He helps his line a ton. That is not lost on me.

With that said that does not happen every snap of every game. Sometimes he misses a call. Sometimes he misses his primary. Sometimes there is a great pass rush or coverage down the field and the line does its job

ashley1992 said:

RW,

I think Thuney has been better this year but I'd be careful with what BB says about certain players....didn't he praise Elandon Roberts earlier in the year and we all know what type of player he is (Sorry, couldn't go another post without mentioning him)

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Through wk-14, Roberts was 4th on the Pats in tackles, tied for 4th in PDs, and 2nd in TFL (to Flowers) - while playing less than 50% of the D-snaps.

AndyJohnson said:

He isn’t getting 7.5 of new money and when he is healthy he is certainly worth that.

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Cap space.

Thats the problem with him. Since 2015 hes missed an entire seasons worth of games which is why even $7.5m of new money is out of line

203Pat said:

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Much better than a JAG, Leonardo

robertweathers said:

Cap space.

Thats the problem with him. Since 2015 hes missed an entire seasons worth of games which is why even $7.5m of new money is out of line

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He isn't getting $7.5M of new money. Of the $7.5M cap figure that you keep citing, he's already pocketed a significant portion of that and the Patriots aren't getting it back no matter what choice they make.

Boomer B said:

Tom does get the ball out quickly though.

2007 - Brady QB - sacked 21x
2008 - Cassel QB - sacked 47x
2009 - Brady QB - sacked 18x

Brady has made many lineman look better then they are

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Looked at another way ...

In 2016, Brady's sack rate was 3.4%, with Cannon playing straight through the season.
In 2017, Brady's sack rate was 5.7%, with Waddle and Fleming subbing in for 9 games + the playoffs.
In 2018, Brady's sack rate has been 3.6 % with Waddle subbing for Cannon in three games (of 15).

maineman209 said:

Through wk-14, Roberts was 4th on the Pats in tackles, tied for 4th in PDs, and 2nd in TFL (to Flowers) - while playing less than 50% of the D-snaps.

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Hes improved but to @ashley1992 point if he was cut next year and Bentley took all his reps the D would be better.

SammyBlueCat said:

er eh what???

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As in they weren’t the reason they lost. The false starts were bad, but the holding was kinda bs. If receivers hadn’t dropped some many balls, the line had played well enough to win that game. Brady had time to throw.

BradyFTW! said:

He isn't getting $7.5M of new money.

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I know that. Andy was making a point.

BradyFTW! said:

Of the $7.5M cap figure that you keep citing, he's already pocketed a significant portion of that and the Patriots aren't getting it back no matter what choice they make.

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Look at 2019 and beyond and tell me what you see if hes cut and what the team saves on the cap. We keep talking past each other.

Marcus Cannon

robertweathers said:

Who is defending two tackles? I'm hammering Cannon. I think Brown and the IOL have played well overall.

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Except Brown is not playing well overall. He's fine in spurts and he's an absolute liability in others.

Brown was s strength 3 weeks ago now hes a liability? He played like dog **** in Pitt and missed a couple of blocks vs MIA but prior to that he was playing pretty damn well.

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This is pretty much the definition of an up and down, boom or bust OL.

I really don't know why sacks and pressures allowed can't be used as meaningful stats to judge the overall play of a line. How do you propose we measure the value of a o line?

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Using sacks and pressures to analyze OL, and particularly OT play, is meaningless when the quarterback is operating in an offense that emphasizes a quick passing game and has one of the faster releases in the NFL (and NFL history) to boot. If you want to better analyze it, you should be looking at how often the tackles have someone chip their guy or outright double him in obvious passing situations. Analyze that and you'll get a good idea of where the tackle play is with specific regard to pass pro in 2018.

robertweathers said:

Relying on PFF is no way to go through life.

Washington Post has him down for 0 sacks allowed this year.
Football | NFL | Player Stats - Joe Thuney - New England Patriots - washingtonpost.com

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Jeff Howe' personal film review has Thuney with 2 sacks in 976 snaps.

robertweathers said:

Cap space.

Thats the problem with him. Since 2015 hes missed an entire seasons worth of games which is why even $7.5m of new money is out of line

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Cap space isn’t the decision, new money is.

Cutting him saves 4.75 mill. No way we get a better player for that.

He has played 11 games and 71% of the snaps this year.
Aside from last year he has missed 9 games in 6 years.

We wouldn’t be 9-5 if he didn’t play.

robertweathers said:

I know that. Andy was making a point.



Look at 2019 and beyond and tell me what you see if hes cut and what the team saves on the cap. We keep talking past each other.

Marcus Cannon

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Looking at 2019 and beyond and talking strictly in terms of what the team saves if he's cut is exactly what I've been doing this entire time, and exactly what you steadfastly refuse to do. You're getting hung up on his cap figure ($7.5M), while I insist on redirecting the conversation to the exact amount of money that the team saves if he's cut ($4.75M).

The Spotrac link you posted is 100% consistent with what I've been arguing this whole time, and does not support the argument you're attempting to make at all. It clearly states that he has a dead cap hit of $2.8M next year. Subtract that from his current cap hit and you get his marginal cap hit, which is $4.75M. That's the amount of money the Pats save by cutting him. Or, if you don't want to take my word for it, take Miguel's instead: Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2016 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page

KontradictioN said:

Except Brown is not playing well overall. He's fine in spurts and he's an absolute liability in others.



This is pretty much the definition of an up and down, boom or bust OL.



Using sacks and pressures to analyze OL, and particularly OT play, is meaningless when the quarterback is operating in an offense that emphasizes a quick passing game and has one of the faster releases in the NFL (and NFL history) to boot. If you want to better analyze it, you should be looking at how often the tackles have someone chip their guy or outright double him in obvious passing situations. Analyze that and you'll get a good idea of where the tackle play is with specific regard to pass pro in 2018.

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Chipping and double teams are common. Especially combo blocking on the inside.