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Marcus Cannon


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This isn't a nuanced situation.

In 2019 Cannon counts for $7.55m of cap space. You answered yes but your reasoning is flawed. My view is you don't pay someone just because you don't have anyone else. If you don't think the player is producing at a level commensurate with their cap space & salary, you either re-negotiate the deal or cut the player. In order to mitigate the risk of that player leaving, you sign FAs, draft players or you cross train players in said position.

I know it's not nuanced, which is why I'm not discussing any of this in nuanced terms. This is econ/strategy 101 material, which for the topic we're discussing is extraordinarily basic, elementary stuff. Nobody would be allowed within a mile of a remotely competent FO's negotiating table until/unless they had a thorough enough understanding of this exact stuff that it's second nature and all but goes without saying.

Getting hung up on the $7.5M is a classic case of sunk cost fallacy/loss aversion fallacy. Unless you can invent a time machine and go back and prevent the Pats from signing Cannon to that contract in the first place, $7.5M is a meaningless, irrelevant number to this discussion. It means nothing, because almost 40% of it has already been paid out and is on next year's cap regardless of what choice the Pats make. Getting hung up on loss aversion is one of the surest ways there is to consistently make the wrong choice in every scenario involving opportunity costs.

And if you think every GM in the league--including Belichick--doesn't account for cost and risk associated with replacing a player with an unproven commodity, then I've gotta strongly disagree there too. If Belichick cuts Cannon, it will almost by definition (because he's a more or less rational actor) have nothing to do with his $7.5M cap hit, and everything to do with the $4.75M saved by cutting him. Belichick will have implicitly determined that, even after factoring in a premium associated with him being a known commodity, Cannon's production is worth less than $4.75M worth of cap space. And that could happen, but it wouldn't be for the reasons you're arguing.
 
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He’s a JAG. Just a guy. Meaning he’s not a stud and not a bum. I’d say that’s pretty accurate.
Hes better than a JAG. Moving on.
 
Dont give me the "Tom always gets the ball out quickly" nonsense.

Sunday notwithstanding the OL is last on the "problems" list.

Except that's anything but nonsense. He does get the ball out quickly, he does help his OL, he does avoid the hits and the sacks that you're trying to measure to excuse OL play even though you know better than that. That ability is one of biggest reasons he's playing this game at a high level for 18 years.
 
According to Jeff Howe's film review stats, thru wk-15:

Brown .... 946 snaps - 3.5 sk .. 13 QBH .. 11 pressures .. 5 holds
Thuney ... 976 snaps - 2.0 sk ... 8 QBH ... 6 pressures .. 3 holds
Andrews . 964 snaps - 1.0 sk ... 2 QBH ... 3 pressures .. 2 holds, chop
Mason .... 810 snaps - 1.5 sk .... 4 QBH ... 2 pressures .. hold, trip, chop
Cannon .. 696 snaps - 1.0 sk .. 10 QBH .. 13 pressures .. 2 holds, trip

Waddle .. 338 snaps - 3.0 sk ... 5 QBH .. 10 pressures
Karras .... 167 snaps - 1.0 sk .................... 1 pressure

I rest my case: Joe Thuney is not a very good Guard 2nd most holds most hits from the Guard position and Third in QB pressures allowed.
 
Definitely agree that Cannon hasn't been the same since he got paid...just wondering if it's injury related...either way, his play has dropped off and we need to give Tom time to throw.

Cannon signed his current deal Nov 29th, 2016.

Since then, he's missed 15 of 42 regular season + post-season games, 12 of those in 2017 with an ankle injury.

In 2018, he's missed three games:
... wk-2 with a calf strain that had him on the injury report for the first month
... wks 7 & 8 with a concussion
 
Getting hung up on the $7.5M is a classic case of sunk cost fallacy. Unless you can invent a time machine and go back and prevent the Pats from signing Cannon to that contract in the first place, $7.5M is a meaningless, irrelevant number to this discussion. It means nothing, because almost 40% of it has already been paid out and is on next year's cap regardless of what choice the Pats make. Getting hung up on loss aversion is one of the surest ways there is to consistently make the wrong choice.

Thats the wrong way to look at. At the start of the deal the Patriots & Cannon structured it as such so most of his $, dead cap & cap space were at the front of the the deal. The did that because they believed that was the least likely portion of the contract in which they would receive value consistent with the $, dead cap and cap space. You can argue the dead cap placeholder is how they were able to squeeze the signing bonus in that particular year but whatever. Now they aren't and it needs adjusting. Same as Dola, Allen and other players who too haircuts to say here.

And if you think every GM in the league--including Belichick--doesn't account for cost and risk associated with replacing a player with an unproven commodity, then I've gotta strongly disagree there too. If Belichick cuts Cannon, it will by definition (because he's a more or less rational actor) have nothing to do with his $7.5M cap hit, and everything to do with the $4.75M saved by cutting him. Belichick will have implicitly determined that, even after factoring in replacement risk, Cannon's production is worth less than $4.75M worth of cap space.

I dont. Not sure where you are getting that.
 
great info, thanks Mainman!!!!


Cannon signed his current deal Nov 29th, 2016.

Since then, he's missed 15 of 42 regular season + post-season games, 12 of those in 2017 with an ankle injury.

In 2018, he's missed three games:
... wk-2 with a calf strain that had him on the injury report for the first month
... wks 7 & 8 with a concussion
 
Dont give me the "Tom always gets the ball out quickly" nonsense.

Sunday notwithstanding the OL is last on the "problems" list.

Tom does get the ball out quickly though.

2007 - Brady QB - sacked 21x
2008 - Cassel QB - sacked 47x
2009 - Brady QB - sacked 18x

Brady has made many lineman look better then they are
 
Tom does get the ball out quickly though.

2007 - Brady QB - sacked 21x
2008 - Cassel QB - sacked 47x
2009 - Brady QB - sacked 18x

Brady has made many lineman look better then they are
He was sacked 35 times last year.
 
Cannon and many others should be heavily talked about this offseason. I wouldn’t mind his return if the coaching staff seems it best - but not “just to hold down the fort and be -ok-“...

Play to win it all. If you can win it all with Cannon, fine. But if there are too many question marks everywhere, move on and make big changes to the roster.

In theory I get where you're coming from, but in practice roster-building requires these kinds of compromises, and each of the five Super Bowl-winning rosters had multiple guys whose performances and contracts were suboptimal at best but who the Pats kept around because they might not be ideal, but for what they made and the baseline of productoin that they established their contracts were worthwhile.

While you need to seek value in every contract you sign up and down the roster, ultimately that isn't the goal but is only a means to making the real end goal more achievable. And the real end goal is building the best team that you can, which will always include a handful (at least) of contracts that don't live up to that standard simply because you have the resources available and those guys produce too. That's why Belichick does things like keep Otis Smith in 2001 (who ended up being instrumental to the first SB win), or sign Bobby Hamilton in 2001, or sign Ted Washington in 2003, or keep Tedy Bruschi post-2004, or sign Rodney Harrison in 2003, or keep Wilfork in 2014, or any of a dozen other moves.
 
the interior of the o-line needs an upgrade, particularly at center. thuney has not impressed either.

The IOL has been the strongest part of the line, especially considering the current defensive emphasis on getting QB pressure up the middle.
 
Except that's anything but nonsense. He does get the ball out quickly, he does help his OL, he does avoid the hits and the sacks that you're trying to measure to excuse OL play even though you know better than that. That ability is one of biggest reasons he's playing this game at a high level for 18 years.
The inverse is also true. You don't win games with a ****ty o line. Tom does not last for 18 years with a ****ty o line.
 
The inverse is also true. You don't win games with a ****ty o line. Tom does not last for 18 years with a ****ty o line.

You're constructing a straw man and I suspect it's because you know you're defending two tackles that haven't played as well as they should be or have. I've never made the claim at the OL as a whole is ****ty. If you believe that I did make that case, you're more than welcome to quote me. I've merely made the case that Brown is boom or bust and Cannon has regressed. Therefore, the tackles are a liability. You decided to use sacks and pressures, when you clearly know better to judge an OL in front of Tom Brady by that, as a response.
 
He was sacked 35 times last year.

I was just showing how an o line with virtually the same players can jump from 21 sacks with a great QB to 47 sacks with a mediocre QB.

The o line last year is obviously different then the one from 2007 - 2009. Also, the game has changed since then as well.
 
Thats the wrong way to look at. At the start of the deal the Patriots & Cannon structured it as such so most of his $, dead cap & cap space were at the front of the the deal. The did that because they believed that was the least likely portion of the contract in which they would receive value consistent with the $, dead cap and cap space. You can argue the dead cap placeholder is how they were able to squeeze the signing bonus in that particular year but whatever. Now they aren't and it needs adjusting. Same as Dola, Allen and other players who too haircuts to say here.

Dola is a really bad example for your argument, because if anything he's a textbook example of the basic, econ/strategy 101 principle I'm applying here. In every offseason where Amendola took a paycut, he started with a cap hit of $X which was irrelevant since total cap hit is always irrelevant to this discussion. Instead, they pretty clearly approached him and said "look, we can save $Y by cutting you, and we value your production at $Z (which is less than $Y). So there are two options here: either we cut you and save $Y against the cap, or we get your cap hit down to $Z." In each case, Amendola agreed and took a paycut to get his cap hit down to $Z.

If you want to look to the past for precedent here, I can cite a bunch of examples where the Pats kept a guy who objectively wasn't worth his total cap figure because once you factored in sunk cost and replacement risk it made more sense to keep him than to cut him. 2014 Wilfork, for starters, is a great example who clearly wasn't 'worth' his $11.6M total cap figure but who the Pats kept around for all of the reasons you're maintaining they don't and shouldn't keep guys around.
 
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Next year will also be the last season of Thuney's rookie contract, so I think there are a few different reasons why you'd target interior o-line early in the draft. Partly for depth, so you aren't one injury from starting Ted Karras again (as much as I've liked him in the preseason, he did not acquit himself well when Mason was injured). Partly to get out in front of replacing Thuney by a year, so you can be less averse to letting him walk if he ends up priced beyond the value of his contributions (kinda like how the Pats loaded up on DEs a year-plus before Jones would have hit FA). And I agree it would be good to get someone who could potentially play center, because while Andrews has been fine there he's certainly upgradeable. But given that Andrews was extended just this past offseason and is signed through 2020, I suspect he's here to stay for at least another year.

Karras was the active IOL reserve for the first three games this season. Then, he sat in favor of Schwenke until Schwenke hurt his foot bad enough to go to IR (Lisfranc, probably). It was after that when Karras subbed for Mason.

Schwenke is UFA at the end of the season, but I could see the Pats trying to re-sign him for a relatively low amount, if only to hedge their bets a bit.
 
keep brown even if it means cutting cannon and putting a rookie at RT
 
This isn't a nuanced situation.

In 2019 Cannon counts for $7.55m of cap space. You answered yes but your reasoning is flawed. My view is you don't pay someone just because you don't have anyone else. If you don't think the player is producing at a level commensurate with their cap space & salary, you either re-negotiate the deal or cut the player. In order to mitigate the risk of that player leaving, you sign FAs, draft players or you cross train players in said position.

I think the point was that it's not prudent to cut a key starter who's under contract before you have an adequate (or superior) replacement in hand, especially if the position is thin to begin with.

I don't think that the Pats have enough leverage in this situation at the moment to hardball Cannon into a pay cut.
 
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