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My 23 year old grandson who was never a good student and would never make it in any college, started last June in the Frost Insulaters Union out of the Boston Local, he works in the Providence area (gets 90% of what they make in Boston) and is doing well, does not really "love" the job, but the benefits are incredible. His hourly package is about $75.00 per hour, that breaks down into hourly wage about $23.00 per hour, medical insurance etc. etc. But the best part of his pay is that the employer pays $8.00 an hour into an annuity, that is about 16K into an annuity.. over 30 years the numbers are staggering. He also has a small landscaping business and banks all that money.. He gets yearly step increases and at a union meeting they decide how to allocate the money.. between hourly wage, annuity contribution etc.

Fortunately, he can keep his eyes on that prize even though as a 1st year apprentice he takes a lot of crap..

Noticed last night the change in TV Advertising on of the big local plumbing companies are advertising for help and will provide training, the same was true for a local garage door installer.. huge switch to do this on a national broadcast(I know it is local advertising). Skilled trades are the way to go right now, and folks may have to get their hands dirty..

Wow. That's one hell of a deal. And yeah, that's a response to a saturation in the market for jobs that require degrees and a move away from skilled trades. Skilled trades companies have to put together packages like that to attract talent. Good for him. He's going in a good direction.
 
What can anyone do?
That whole redistribution of wealth idea is dumb

again we don't need to redistribute wealth, we need the wealthy to pay their fair share in taxes.

We need elected officials to stop taking kick backs in order to push through deals that give business worth hundreds of billions of dollars tax free hand outs(see the foxconn in Wi debacle, or look at what areas are promising amazon for their next distribution center)

We need to stop forcing towns to have to pay for billion dollar stadiums so that BILLIONAIRES don't have to do it. The reason the rich remain rich, and just get more rich is that the middle and lower classes are the one that pays for everything.
 
again we don't need to redistribute wealth, we need the wealthy to pay their fair share in taxes.

Stop it! The top 1$ pays 85% of the total income tax, anyone making less than $50,000 receives money from that 1%. Even if you tax the top 1% at a 100% rate, it would still not fund the government.
 
again we don't need to redistribute wealth, we need the wealthy to pay their fair share in taxes.

We need elected officials to stop taking kick backs in order to push through deals that give business worth hundreds of billions of dollars tax free hand outs(see the foxconn in Wi debacle, or look at what areas are promising amazon for their next distribution center)

We need to stop forcing towns to have to pay for billion dollar stadiums so that BILLIONAIRES don't have to do it. The reason the rich remain rich, and just get more rich is that the middle and lower classes are the one that pays for everything.

This would then lead to corporations leaving, job losses, etc. I agree with ending corruption and all that but raising taxes on rich people is a tricky thing
 
This would then lead to corporations leaving, job losses, etc. I agree with ending corruption and all that but raising taxes on rich people is a tricky thing

That's why a flat tax would be fantastic.

Income - cost of living factor x 15% = Tax owed.

Only deduction being the "cost of living" factor. If you earn less than the cost of living factor then you owe nothing. Anything earned above that is taxed.

Cut corporate tax rates to 0. Increase the Individual tax to compensate for the loss in corporate tax revenue which was only 15% of the total tax revenue to begin with. IIRC.

More jobs = more tax revenue = money for programs etc....
 
It's probably been corrected but the they were arrested on Friday night not Saturday night.
 
If you’re a person of color, you have scholarship opportunities available to you based on your color alone. There are also student loans you can take out or you can pay your own way. When I went to get my MBA, my parents made it clear that they were done and that I had to do it on my own. I researched jobs that offered tuition reimbursement, applied, got hired at one, and worked the two year probationary period in their call center until I qualified for their reimbursement plan. I had to save and front the money for my first few semesters before the reimbursements came in. Then I had to work full time in a job where I ended up topping out at just over $1,300 bi-weekly while eating a **** sandwich day after day in a call center for a utility company while taking anywhere from six (fall) to nine (spring and summer) credit hours per semester. It took two and a half years longer than it have had I just gone full time as a student and taken out loans, but I eventually graduated, moved up in the same company, and am now in management where I make a very healthy salary.

The moral is: it can be done. This country allows people the resources to get out of poverty. People are remarkably resourceful when they need to be. When the chips are down, but you want it bad enough, you’ll find a way. But it’s not easy and you have to work your ass off for it. And that last sentence is why too many are content to sit on their asses with their hands out.

Ok, to get back to this:

This country, point blank, does NOT help people get out of poverty. Classism, Racism, and discrimination are still alive and well, and working through other means than what they used to- that is to say, these are not so prevalent and obvious as they were in the past, but they are still very much in force. For example, a bank is now prohibited from making discriminatory loans, but they've gotten around that with the concept of "factoring in" the racial makeup and median income of the neighborhood where the person requesting the loan is located.

Now, what you have just described is the exception rather than the norm. You have accomplished what very few people have done, and you, very fortunately, did it without taking out a student loan which, these days, is borderline predatory lending. Plenty on that if you want to google it.

And as far as "scholarship opportunities," Mark Kantrowitz who's written a book on the subject showed that to be a complete myth:

The fact is, very few students receive enough scholarships and grants (including state and federal need-based and non-need-based aid) to cover all college costs. Of the students enrolled full time at four-year colleges in the 2007-08 school year, only 0.3 percent (be sure you read that right: not 3 percent but 0.3 percent) received enough money to cover the full cost of attendance, according to Kantrowitz, whose statistics come from the National Postsecondary Student Aid Study

Some more interesting tidbits if you have the time to read:

MYTH: Poor people are unmotivated and have weak work ethics.

The Reality: Poor people do not have weaker work ethics or lower levels of motivation than wealthier people (Iversen & Farber, 1996; Wilson, 1997). Although poor people are often stereotyped as lazy, 83 percent of children from low-income families have at least one employed parent; close to 60 percent have at least one parent who works full-time and year-round (National Center for Children in Poverty, 2004). In fact, the severe shortage of living-wage jobs means that many poor adults must work two, three, or four jobs. According to the Economic Policy Institute (2002), poor working adults spend more hours working each week than their wealthier counterparts.

MYTH: Poor parents are uninvolved in their children's learning, largely because they do not value education.

The Reality: Low-income parents hold the same attitudes about education that wealthy parents do (Compton-Lilly, 2003; Lareau & Horvat, 1999; Leichter, 1978). Low-income parents are less likely to attend school functions or volunteer in their children's classrooms (National Center for Education Statistics, 2005)—not because they care less about education, but because they have less access to school involvement than their wealthier peers. They are more likely to work multiple jobs, to work evenings, to have jobs without paid leave, and to be unable to afford child care and public transportation. It might be said more accurately that schools that fail to take these considerations into account do not value the involvement of poor families as much as they value the involvement of other families.

MYTH: Poor people are linguistically deficient.

The Reality: All people, regardless of the languages and language varieties they speak, use a full continuum of language registers (Bomer, Dworin, May, & Semingson, 2008). What's more, linguists have known for decades that all language varieties are highly structured with complex grammatical rules (Gee, 2004; Hess, 1974; Miller, Cho, & Bracey, 2005). What often are assumed to be deficient varieties of English—Appalachian varieties, perhaps, or what some refer to as Black English Vernacular—are no less sophisticated than so-called "standard English."

MYTH: Poor people tend to abuse drugs and alcohol.

The Reality: Poor people are no more likely than their wealthier counterparts to abuse alcohol or drugs. Although drug sales are more visible in poor neighborhoods, drug use is equally distributed across poor, middle class, and wealthy communities (Saxe, Kadushin, Tighe, Rindskopf, & Beveridge, 2001). Chen, Sheth, Krejci, and Wallace (2003) found that alcohol consumption is significantly higheramong upper middle class white high school students than among poor black high school students. Their finding supports a history of research showing that alcohol abuse is far more prevalent among wealthy people than among poor people (Diala, Muntaner, & Walrath, 2004; Galea, Ahern, Tracy, & Vlahov, 2007). In other words, considering alcohol and illicit drugs together, wealthy people are more likely than poor people to be substance abusers.
 
Ok, to get back to this:

This country, point blank, does NOT help people get out of poverty. Classism, Racism, and discrimination are still alive and well, and working through other means than what they used to- that is to say, these are not so prevalent and obvious as they were in the past, but they are still very much in force.

Sure it does. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have gains and increases with multiple ethnicities closing the gap on white students with post secondary enrollment and education.

For example, a bank is now prohibited from making discriminatory loans, but they've gotten around that with the concept of "factoring in" the racial makeup and median income of the neighborhood where the person requesting the loan is located.

That's a part of the age we live in - data analysis. Companies pull advanced data and analytics about the customers with whom they do business. In that vein, I can't blame them for taking into account the median income of the neighborhood the person is living in nor their race. Their analytics will show payback rates and periods of similar people with whom they've done business with in the past. If someone is requesting a $60k loan and their neighborhood shows a median income of $30k, why should the bank lend them that money?

Now, what you have just described is the exception rather than the norm.

It's only the exception rather than the norm because most people aren't willing to patiently wait, go through the process, take advantage of it, take longer doing it, and work while they do it. Per a Time Magazine article dated 4/25/16, roughly 60% of employers nation-wide offer tuition reimbursement programs with similar caps to what my company has. That means that the majority of employers, on average, in any given area of the country, offer reimbursement programs of some sort. That's because advanced analytics show the benefits to companies of such programs. More here: Paying Their Workers' College Tuition Can Pay Off for Companies

You have accomplished what very few people have done, and you, very fortunately, did it without taking out a student loan which, these days, is borderline predatory lending. Plenty on that if you want to google it.

Oh, I don't need to Google it. I went that route for a good reason. As I said before, it would have been much less stressful on me at the time to simply go the federal loan route and become a full time student. But I didn't want to rack up that debt because, by the time I got out, I was going to be in my late 20's and wasn't sure what direction my life was going to take me in at that time (I.E., marriage, house buying, car payments, etc.) coupled with the fact that I already had some loan debt from my previous foray in college for a job that I had quickly become disenchanted by. That said, they are available and the majority of students that wish to take advantage of them. Roughly 70% of students nationwide graduate with student loan debt. It's not optimal, but it is a way out should you wish to take it.

But, getting back to a previous point, I have a hard time squaring the fact that roughly 60% of employers (and this number is supposedly increasing with analytics that show the benefits of offering reimbursement programs) offer tuition reimbursement and yet 70% of graduate and undergraduate students hold about $1.5 trillion in student loan debt. Why? The only conclusion that I can come to is that it's because taking out loan debt is the easier path of the two. But, again, those are two ways through higher education and out of poverty. The other is through scholarships, which you address below...

And as far as "scholarship opportunities," Mark Kantrowitz who's written a book on the subject showed that to be a complete myth:



Some more interesting tidbits if you have the time to read:

Sounds like an interesting read and I would like to research it a bit more when I have time. That being said, that data is between 10 and 14 years old, from what I can tell. A lot changes in a decade. I went to look up more recent data from the U.S. department of education and here were a few things that stood out...

https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2016/2016007.pdf

Between 1990 and 2013, total fall undergraduate enrollment of some racial/ethnic groups grew faster than that of other groups, and the racial/ethnic distribution of students therefore changed. The largest increases in undergraduate enrollment were observed for Hispanic and Black students; specifically, Hispanic student enrollment as a percentage of total enrollment increased 11 percentage points (from 6 to 17 percent) and Black student enrollment as a percentage of total enrollment increased 5 percentage points (from 10 to 15 percent) during this time period.

Among full-time, full-year undergraduate students,85 percent of Black and American Indian/Alaska Native students and 80 percent of Hispanic students received any type of grants in 2011–12. These percentages were higher than the percentages of students of Two or more races (73 percent) and of White (69 percent), Pacific Islander (67 percent),and Asian (63 percent) students who received grants

In 2011–12, about 72 percent of Black students received any type of loans, compared with 62 percent of American Indian/Alaska Native students,59 percent of students of Two or more races,56 percent of White, 51 percent of Hispanic students,51 percent of Pacific Islander students, and 38 percent of Asian students.

The 3-year graduation rate for first-time, full-time students at public 2-year institutions in 2013 washighest for Asian students (28 percent) and lowest for Black students (11 percent). Graduation rates for first-time, full-time students at public 2-year institutions in the remaining racial/ethnic groups ranged from15 to 22 percent.

However...

The number of bachelor’s degrees conferred to Hispanic students more than doubled between2002–03 and 2012–13, and the number conferred to Black students increased by 54 percent. During the same period, the number of degrees conferred to Asian/Pacific Islander, White, and American Indian/Alaska Native students increased by smaller percentages (48, 23, and 16 percent, respectively).

upload_2018-11-1_11-2-43.png
upload_2018-11-1_11-3-8.png
upload_2018-11-1_11-3-29.png

Simply put, we wouldn't see these kinds of gains if the system was designed to keep people (and specifically minorities) in poverty.
 
My 23 year old grandson who was never a good student and would never make it in any college, started last June in the Frost Insulaters Union out of the Boston Local, he works in the Providence area (gets 90% of what they make in Boston) and is doing well, does not really "love" the job, but the benefits are incredible. His hourly package is about $75.00 per hour, that breaks down into hourly wage about $23.00 per hour, medical insurance etc. etc. But the best part of his pay is that the employer pays $8.00 an hour into an annuity, that is about 16K into an annuity.. over 30 years the numbers are staggering. He also has a small landscaping business and banks all that money.. He gets yearly step increases and at a union meeting they decide how to allocate the money.. between hourly wage, annuity contribution etc.

Fortunately, he can keep his eyes on that prize even though as a 1st year apprentice he takes a lot of crap..

Noticed last night the change in TV Advertising on of the big local plumbing companies are advertising for help and will provide training, the same was true for a local garage door installer.. huge switch to do this on a national broadcast(I know it is local advertising). Skilled trades are the way to go right now, and folks may have to get their hands dirty..
I tell people this all the time. Pipe fitters, electricians, plumbers etc make great money. Hell I'm a journeyman in the laborers & will be approaching 40 per soon. The packages are unbelievable & if you're a worker you can make 100K easy. So much work in Boston it's crazy.

College is great but if you're job isn't in demand you're fuc ked. Have of Cambridge is filled w lawyers that didn't make it driving Uber or delivering pizza.

If you're 18-20 & not the brightest bulb, go into the trades. Retired by 50 making 6-10K a month including SS.

You're grandson is smart having his fingers in different pies.
 
I tell people this all the time. Pipe fitters, electricians, plumbers etc make great money. Hell I'm a journeyman in the laborers & will be approaching 40 per soon. The packages are unbelievable & if you're a worker you can make 100K easy. So much work in Boston it's crazy.

College is great but if you're job isn't in demand you're fuc ked. Have of Cambridge is filled w lawyers that didn't make it driving Uber or delivering pizza.

If you're 18-20 & not the brightest bulb, go into the trades. Retired by 50 making 6-10K a month including SS.

You're grandson is smart having his fingers in different pies.

Oh, there are a ton of lawyers out there that aren't making real money anymore and are putting in 10-14 hour days. The market is absolutely saturated with them. What's happening with regard to shortages in skilled trades and a saturation in jobs that require undergraduate or graduate degrees is one of the reasons why I don't believe that going the European/Asian route and making college even more accessible to everyone (or even free) is a good idea. You'll have plumbers that have PhDs they can't use because they can't find a job in their field of study.

As of right now, skilled trade is definitely the way to go. The job market is wide open there and employers are putting together very attractive packages to lure in prospective employees (as Darryl touched on before).
 
Wow. That's one hell of a deal. And yeah, that's a response to a saturation in the market for jobs that require degrees and a move away from skilled trades. Skilled trades companies have to put together packages like that to attract talent. Good for him. He's going in a good direction.
And he saves all of that money in student loans. Mine are $962 per month for 20 years (240 months), which is beyond absurd, and those are through the government, as none are even private lenders. It ends up being about 100k in interest. It really makes you think twice about “doing the right thing” and going to school, which is basically what’s driven into our heads for years.
 
And he saves all of that money in student loans. Mine are $962 per month for 20 years (240 months), which is beyond absurd, and those are through the government, as none are even private lenders. It ends up being about 100k in interest. It really makes you think twice about “doing the right thing” and going to school, which is basically what’s driven into our heads for years.
Jesus. Did you stay in school for a decade? ;)

I’m sure you can agree that it’s better than living in poverty though. Having to worry about getting your power cut off every month, struggling to feed yourself let alone a family, rarely having more than $20 in your name total. When I was in school, there were times when I would pay my bills then have less than $80 total of “discretionary income” left in my name. I would never want to go back to that and I shouldn’t have to now that my education is finished and I have a good job. For me, taking out loans was a last option. Originally, I thought about joining the military but didn’t want to postpone school for four more years so I went the reimbursement route.
 
That's why a flat tax would be fantastic.

Income - cost of living factor x 15% = Tax owed.

Only deduction being the "cost of living" factor. If you earn less than the cost of living factor then you owe nothing. Anything earned above that is taxed.

Cut corporate tax rates to 0. Increase the Individual tax to compensate for the loss in corporate tax revenue which was only 15% of the total tax revenue to begin with. IIRC.

More jobs = more tax revenue = money for programs etc....
Please tell me this is sarcasm. Wages have been practically stagnant, even during the "trickle down economics" phase. Wait until the effect of the 40% reduction in corporate taxes become impossible to ignore for even the most blind among us.
 
I tell people this all the time. Pipe fitters, electricians, plumbers etc make great money. Hell I'm a journeyman in the laborers & will be approaching 40 per soon. The packages are unbelievable & if you're a worker you can make 100K easy. So much work in Boston it's crazy.

College is great but if you're job isn't in demand you're fuc ked. Have of Cambridge is filled w lawyers that didn't make it driving Uber or delivering pizza.

If you're 18-20 & not the brightest bulb, go into the trades. Retired by 50 making 6-10K a month including SS.

You're grandson is smart having his fingers in different pies.
IBEW (Electrical) Local 400.
I ain't complainin'.
;).

The only thing that annoys me is people who say "Oh your Union? You must stand around all day".

I've been busting my ass, and breaking down my body for 30 yrs.
I'm really starting to feel it in my 50's.

It's hard work at times, but I've done ok and have a nice annuity and pension.

I'm also licensed and have done a lot of "side work" on top of other endeavors (flipping houses, property investments...), when laid off.

Not many regrets
 
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I tell people this all the time. Pipe fitters, electricians, plumbers etc make great money. Hell I'm a journeyman in the laborers & will be approaching 40 per soon. The packages are unbelievable & if you're a worker you can make 100K easy. So much work in Boston it's crazy.

College is great but if you're job isn't in demand you're fuc ked. Have of Cambridge is filled w lawyers that didn't make it driving Uber or delivering pizza.

If you're 18-20 & not the brightest bulb, go into the trades. Retired by 50 making 6-10K a month including SS.

You're grandson is smart having his fingers in different pies.

+ the huge advantage of no debt or loans when he finishes his training... he knows he was not college material, school was very difficult for him.
 
+ the huge advantage of no debt or loans when he finishes his training... he knows he was not college material, school was very difficult for him.

I'm sure he's smart & is bright, esp if he's doing everything you say at that age. Different people learn in different ways. Like you said school isn't for everyone but he's kicking asz in the real world
 


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