Defensive Tackles

Clearly DT is a need for the patriots. Brown and Shelton are free agents and if not resigned they would leave a big hole.

My top 5

1.) Oliver Houston - pure one gap dt, expected to be off the board early. Next to no chance to draft this talented kid.

2.) Davis Alabama - pure beast. Excellent in the two gap system. Probably off the board by the time the patriots pick. If not, he is a perfect fit for us.

3.) Lawrence Clemson - large man who commands double teams and stops the run. Again probably off the board before he gets to us, but would be a great addition to our defense.

4.) Simmons miss st. - a bit under sized. Not the greatest run stopper. Might need a red shirt year in order to start for us.

5.) Q Williams Alabama - two gapper with size strength and some pass rush skills. Power violent hands and decent run stopper. Probably not a first round talent, but fits our defense well.

• Derrick Brown - Auburn
• Greg Gaines - Washington
• Demarcus Christmas - FSU
• Christian Wilkins - Clemson
• Ricky Walker - VT

This should be an absolutely stacked draft at DT. It’ll definitely be a need because thus far, Shelton and Brown have not impressed.

Simmons & Davis are monsters. Had both as lottery picks in May & their still there. Simmons has a video of him hitting a broad so who knows how that'll effect him & Davis has the gun incident.

Wren, Tillery, Jones, Copeland, Beckner Jr, Blaylock, Ghaifan, Buggs, Lawrence (LSU), Keke, Mack

I have to do 300 something evals this year so I'll have this forum loaded w reports by draft time.

Dwfensive tackle rankings updated as of week 8.

1.) Oliver of Houston - pure one gapper and top 10 selection in the upcoming draft. Weaker against the run than I would expect, but huge pass rusher!

2.) Davis of Alabama - monster two gapper with tremendous size and strength. So powerful against the run. Should be a top 20 pick.

3.) Tilley of Norte dame - really coming on strong as a run defender and pass rusher. Should be available when we pick.

4.) Lawrence of Clemson - monster size that shuts down the running game and eats double teams. Best served as he next Ted Washington in our defense. Should be our pick at 32.

5.) Simmons of miss state - a one gapper with tremendous pass rush skillls. Not the best run defender. Will be over drafted by teams looking for the next great pass rushers by dt.

Defensive tackle rankings updated through week 11

1.) Oliver of Houston. Total one gapper and next Aaron donald. Expected top 10 pick.

2.) Lawrence of Clemson - total stud. Can two gap and control the line of scrimmage. Wilfork light. Should be a top 20 pick.

3.) Davis of Alabama - dominator and commands the double team. Can two gap. Should be a first round pick.

4.) q Williams of Alabama - having a break out season and constantly harassing qb’s and rb’s. Should be a first round pick.

5.) Brown of auburn - massive player and can two gap. Controls the line of scrimmage and tough to move. Eats double teams.

Thoughts on Gerald Willis III from Miami (Fl)? I think he'd be a good 2nd round pick.

SirApropos said:

Thoughts on Gerald Willis III from Miami (Fl)? I think he'd be a good 2nd round pick.

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Attacking, penetrate type w some good hands. Inconsistent but really but together a nice year. Twitched up w power. Classic 3T you'd think. Looked like a late 1 at times this year. Fun player w some off the field stuff but seems like hes on the right track

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Attacking, penetrate type w some good hands. Inconsistent but really but together a nice year. Twitched up w power. Classic 3T you'd think. Looked like a late 1 at times this year. Fun player w some off the field stuff but seems like hes on the right track

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More of a one gapper than a Bb two gapper.

The player on the Miami defense that pops on tape is the corner. Micheal Johnson or Jackson or something like that.

This is an extremely strong year for 2 gapping DTs, assuming everyone eligible leaves. It would be a great time to switch to a 3-4 front if they can nab a couple beasts to man the front.

However, in my opinion, Oliver is a bit overrated. I haven't seen mindblowing tape from him yet. Willing to be proven wrong though.

miloofcroton said:

This is an extremely strong year for 2 gapping DTs, assuming everyone eligible leaves. It would be a great time to switch to a 3-4 front if they can nab a couple beasts to man the front.

However, in my opinion, Oliver is a bit overrated. I haven't seen mindblowing tape from him yet. Willing to be proven wrong though.

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With the rules the way they are, I have a hard time seeing us going back to a 34 base. The Nickel is, and has been, the new base.

KontradictioN said:

With the rules the way they are, I have a hard time seeing us going back to a 34 base. The Nickel is, and has been, the new base.

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What point are you trying to make?

I mean, for one, I could point to how most of the top defenses around the league use the 3-4 (Ravens, Bears, Steelers, Rams), if we're talking trends.

If we're talking strategy, the 3-4 defense provides fallback plans regarding pass rush. What happens if your defensive line comes out flat, and you have invested your cap in those 4-3 DEs? Well, shucks. You just have to keep playing those cards and hope they win.

If you're in the 3-4, you have options. You have fallback options. You can keep the same starters out there, but you can play the hot hand when it comes to the rush. If your edge guy isn't necessarily cutting it, just put him in coverage for a minute, and mix in some other blitzes.

In the nickel, a 3-4 base defense can conceivably be in a 2-4, 3-3 stack, 3-3 even, 3-3 wide, and a 4-2 front. A 4-3 base can essentially only be in a 4-2.

miloofcroton said:

What point are you trying to make?

I mean, for one, I could point to how most of the top defenses around the league use the 3-4 (Ravens, Bears, Steelers, Rams), if we're talking trends.

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You may want to reexamine this.

If we're talking strategy, the 3-4 defense provides fallback plans regarding pass rush. What happens if your defensive line comes out flat, and you have invested your cap in those 4-3 DEs? Well, shucks. You just have to keep playing those cards and hope they win.

If you're in the 3-4, you have options. You have fallback options. You can keep the same starters out there, but you can play the hot hand when it comes to the rush. If your edge guy isn't necessarily cutting it, just put him in coverage for a minute, and mix in some other blitzes.

In the nickel, a 3-4 base defense can conceivably be in a 2-4, 3-3 stack, 3-3 even, 3-3 wide, and a 4-2 front. A 4-3 base can essentially only be in a 4-2.

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We don't have any 34 DEs currently on the roster on top of not having a toilet clogger at DT. Moving back toward a 34 base also means that we would need at least one more OLB with size that would make the defense even slower, which would be a death wish against today's wide open passing attack. That's why you're seeing more and more teams (including the ones you listed) utilizing the Nickel as a base.

KontradictioN said:

Moving back toward a 34 base also means that we would need at least one more OLB with size that would make the defense even slower

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In base, a 3-4 team compensates for that speed deficit (which is partially a myth, as 4-3 base teams that play an odd front with a heavy on-the-ball backer face the same issues) by bringing up a safety. Really, most odd front teams do this, whether it's 4-3 or 3-4. It's a big part of the philosophy that started in Seattle and spread to Atlanta, Jacksonville, San Francisco, etc.

In nickel, a 3-4 team is often faster or at least as fast as a 4-3 team. It really depends because personnel differs and so do actual game decisions, but 3-4 teams are often quite comfortable in a 2-4 defense in nickel, assuming it's a passing situation. That means they have 4 rushers that are all playing their best position. The 3-4 base accommodates 2 edge rushers and 2 3 to 5 technique guys, whereas a 4-3 will typically accommodate 1 edge guy, 2 tweeners (as far as the 3 to 5 tech is concerned) that have to slide in from strong end or out from 3 technique, and that's it. Depth at these positions can certainly solve problems, but relying on talent to solve all problems is a brute force method.

miloofcroton said:

In base, a 3-4 team compensates for that speed deficit (which is partially a myth, as 4-3 base teams that play an odd front with a heavy on-the-ball backer face the same issues) by bringing up a safety. Really, most odd front teams do this, whether it's 4-3 or 3-4. It's a big part of the philosophy that started in Seattle and spread to Atlanta, Jacksonville, San Francisco, etc.

In nickel, a 3-4 team is often faster or at least as fast as a 4-3 team. It really depends because personnel differs and so do actual game decisions, but 3-4 teams are often quite comfortable in a 2-4 defense in nickel, assuming it's a passing situation. That means they have 4 rushers that are all playing their best position. The 3-4 base accommodates 2 edge rushers and 2 3 to 5 technique guys, whereas a 4-3 will typically accommodate 1 edge guy, 2 tweeners (as far as the 3 to 5 tech is concerned) that have to slide in from strong end or out from 3 technique, and that's it. Depth at these positions can certainly solve problems, but relying on talent to solve all problems is a brute force method.

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In today's NFL, with the renaissance of the RB position, brining up an extra safety into the box consistently is asking for trouble. Plus, by my estimation, we need a two-gapping NT, two 34 DEs, at least one OLB, and a viable 34 ILB. That's not to mention upcoming needs at safety (possibly two bodies there) and CB on top of the needs on offense. I don't see it. I think if the team were planning a move back to the 34 as the base, we would have seen that process start already.

KontradictioN said:

In today's NFL, with the renaissance of the RB position, brining up an extra safety into the box consistently is asking for trouble. Plus, by my estimation, we need a two-gapping NT, two 34 DEs, at least one OLB, and a viable 34 ILB. That's not to mention upcoming needs at safety (possibly two bodies there) and CB on top of the needs on offense. I don't see it. I think if the team were planning a move back to the 34 as the base, we would have seen that process start already.

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Agree 100% with you.

I do think DT Lawrence from Clemson will be available in the first round when we pick. He would be huge for our interior run defense.

Finding defensive ends that can rush and set the edge is very difficult to find. But I really like Ferguson of Louisiana tech in the second round.

At safety, I like tapp from Washington in the second round. He is a playmaker.

In the third round, we could get either lb Miller or afternee of Alabama as well as the best corner on the board and Hyatt the ot from Clemson.

That would fill a lot of holes and give us the absolute to show some 3-4 looks. But not play that defense full time.

Ochmed Jones said:

Agree 100% with you.

I do think DT Lawrence from Clemson will be available in the first round when we pick. He would be huge for our interior run defense.

Finding defensive ends that can rush and set the edge is very difficult to find. But I really like Ferguson of Louisiana tech in the second round.

At safety, I like tapp from Washington in the second round. He is a playmaker.

In the third round, we could get either lb Miller or afternee of Alabama as well as the best corner on the board and Hyatt the ot from Clemson.

That would fill a lot of holes and give us the absolute to show some 3-4 looks. But not play that defense full time.

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Agree or disagree? Your rating button says disagree but the post agrees.

KontradictioN said:

Agree or disagree? Your rating button says disagree but the post agrees.

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Agree.

KontradictioN said:

In today's NFL, with the renaissance of the RB position, brining up an extra safety into the box consistently is asking for trouble. Plus, by my estimation, we need a two-gapping NT, two 34 DEs, at least one OLB, and a viable 34 ILB. That's not to mention upcoming needs at safety (possibly two bodies there) and CB on top of the needs on offense. I don't see it. I think if the team were planning a move back to the 34 as the base, we would have seen that process start already.

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Do you see teams that play odd fronts with one high safety getting thrashed by pass-catching RBs? I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, as it's something I haven't really considered. It just doesn't make much sense to me, as a safety is going to be better at covering a RB than even your best coverage LB would be. It almost seems like a boon for the defense.

Malcom Brown and Danny Shelton both fit in as noses and under tackles in the 3-4. Mind you, the 3-4 isn't just about the boring old 2-gap DL anymore. Guy is the prototype DE/DT. Clayborn and Wise (if he bulks up a bit) would also be solid, providing extra pass rush without necessarily a big loss in run stopping.

Flowers, Rivers, and Simon (and Hightower too) figure as quality rush linebackers. More can always be acquired, of course.

In some nickel packages, you could conceivably have Flowers/Wise/Clayborn/Rivers as the 4 rushing the passer. That would be pretty dynamic. Replace Clayborn with Brown for a front with a little more balance. I think 3-4 base defenses have more flexibility to do that kind of thing.

Inside, you have Roberts, Van Noy, Hightower again. It's really much like any other defense as far as this goes. Maybe there's a tiny bit more demand for a guy who can make tackles reliably, since there might be one less guy who can pursue the ball carrier (kinda, sorta, not really).

I really don't see weaknesses in the current roster that would prevent this scheme from being used. Chung is even a decent safety to play that hybrid role where he's maybe in the box, maybe in the slot, maybe playing back.

I disagree with brown or Shelton playing nose tackle.

Brown does not have enough sand in the pants to consistently anchor against double teams.

Shelton plays so high, he is easy to wash out with a single blocker , let alone double teams.

I have been so disappointed by Shelton’s inability to absorb double teams. It’s just with the poor play of the de opposite flowers, no one is noticing it much.

Ochmed Jones said:

I disagree with brown or Shelton playing nose tackle.

Brown does not have enough sand in the pants to consistently anchor against double teams.

Shelton plays so high, he is easy to wash out with a single blocker , let alone double teams.

I have been so disappointed by Shelton’s inability to absorb double teams. It’s just with the poor play of the de opposite flowers, no one is noticing it much.

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Ya, but we don't need the next Ted Washington to play NT anymore. The game has changed. There are plenty of 3-4 teams with noses that are barely 300 pounds, and granted technique is very important for the position, but what the Pats have shouldn't be considered a huge weakness for the spot.