Zack Martin's New Deal and Shaq Mason

Shaq's no Martins and Shaq's no Mankins.

We can have him for less if we want.

I don't believe in paying guards. The problem with guards is they don't win you games but they can lose you games. My MO is to find a guard good enough to not lose you a game and pay him that amount.

IMO the positions you never pay top dollar to are IOL, RB and blocking TE (If he can catch that is great but you pay for the pass catching ability and not the blocking).

BobDigital said:

I don't believe in paying guards. The problem with guards is they don't win you games but they can lose you games. My MO is to find a guard good enough to not lose you a game and pay him that amount.

IMO the positions you never pay top dollar to are IOL, RB and blocking TE (If he can catch that is great but you pay for the pass catching ability and not the blocking).

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I think there are special exceptions for guys like Logan Mankins, or maybe a top center. Those would be justified examples that you can build your franchise around. I don’t think Shaq Mason fits that mold, but I would be all for keeping him on a fair deal. Like many free agents, the assumption is that another team will likely offer him more.

So, a fair deal is likely to much less than the market? Fair to whom?

supafly said:

I think there are special exceptions for guys like Logan Mankins, or maybe a top center. Those would be justified examples that you can build your franchise around. I don’t think Shaq Mason fits that mold, but I would be all for keeping him on a fair deal. Like many free agents, the assumption is that another team will likely offer him more.

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DarrylS said:

Currently the Pats are about 20 million under the cap for 2019... do not see them breaking the bank for Mason. They can tweak some of the contracts and free up some money, but to pay him 14 million does not seem feasible at this juncture.

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We could easily gain another 10 mill just from 53 cuts - Dwayne Allen, Patterson/Britt, Dorsett, etc. It's still a bit surprising that we lost all those guys this year and still won't be in a slightly better cap situation.

HailHydra said:

We could easily gain another 10 mill just from 53 cuts - Dwayne Allen, Patterson/Britt, Dorsett, etc. It's still a bit surprising that we lost all those guys this year and still won't be in a slightly better cap situation.

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Actually, it's a bit interesting to see that there's quite a bit of pricey contracts on the 2019 cap that could easily be taken off. Here's a few:

Hoyer - he jumps from 900k to 3 mill so could be interesting if Etling develops
Allen - 5 mill jumps to 7.4 mill, which seems like a big no.
Lawrence Guy may be looking on the outside if both Shelton and Brown play. 3.7 mill
Van Noy - 3.5 mill jumps to 6.5 mill
Possibly McCourty since that 12 mill goes to 13.5 mill, which could be getting too high for an aging vet.
Cyrus Jones - 1 mill


It's important to realize that we won't get any accurate number until camp cuts, since we have 54 locked up for 2019 right now, which is implausible.

Freeing up 15-20 mill wouldn't be too hard to do.

HailHydra said:

It's important to realize that we won't get any accurate number until camp cuts, since we have 54 locked up for 2019 right now, which is implausible.

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Bingo.

And why isn't Solder on the roster.

It is always easy to free up 15 or 20 million. That is NOT the question. The open question is value. Should we use the $10M-$15M on Flowers? on Flowers and Mason? Perhaps on others??

The issue is, given the alternatives, how much is Belichick willing to pay for a RG.

Let us deal with an unlikely possibility. The patriots might sign Brown to an extension to be our LT with Wynn being one of our guards. How much would Mason be worth to us then?

In any case, we cannot look at one or two people in isolation, AND we can always afford free up the money if the player is viewed to be worth the value to the patriots.

HailHydra said:

Freeing up 15-20 mill wouldn't be too hard to do.

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mgteich said:

So, a fair deal is likely to much less than the market? Fair to whom?

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Do you prefer the term “reasonable” rather than “fair?”

supafly said:

Do you prefer the term “reasonable” rather than “fair?”

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I do. Fair implies a win-win situation.

For example, I don't think that an offer of say $8M a year is fair for a player who can earn $12M in the open market from a competitive team.

However, $8M might be a reasonable offer for Belichick to make.

mgteich said:

And why isn't Solder on the roster.

It is always easy to free up 15 or 20 million. That is NOT the question. The open question is value. Should we use the $10M-$15M on Flowers? on Flowers and Mason? Perhaps on others??

The issue is, given the alternatives, how much is Belichick willing to pay for a RG.

Let us deal with an unlikely possibility. The patriots might sign Brown to an extension to be our LT with Wynn being one of our guards. How much would Mason be worth to us then?

In any case, we cannot look at one or two people in isolation, AND we can always afford free up the money if the player is viewed to be worth the value to the patriots.

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And this is crucial since we have 6 starting quality linemen - one of whom will be on the bench or starting on a different team (and fetch a nice price considering the recent trades for linemen). Let's say that Belichick trades Mason a year early. This is perfectly plausible since Brown would slip in at LT and Thuney and Wynn would go somewhere between LG/RG. Obviously, this assumes that all 6 players are playing well during camp, and there isn't a darkhorse candidate like LaAdrian Waddle who plays well enough to warrant a trade or starting position (Trent Brown's a much sexier option to start at tackle tho ;p)

mgteich said:

I do. Fair implies a win-win situation.

For example, I don't think that an offer of say $8M a year is fair for a player who can earn $12M in the open market from a competitive team.

However, $8M might be a reasonable offer for Belichick to make.

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In your example, I think that a “reasonable” offer would be in the middle of your two extremes, so let’s say 10m dollars a year.

I don’t think that Mason will stay here since I think that another team will pay him more, but I wouldn’t mind seeing him retained on a reasonable offer. This can be said for many free agents.

mgteich said:

And why isn't Solder on the roster.

It is always easy to free up 15 or 20 million. That is NOT the question. The open question is value. Should we use the $10M-$15M on Flowers? on Flowers and Mason? Perhaps on others??

The issue is, given the alternatives, how much is Belichick willing to pay for a RG.

Let us deal with an unlikely possibility. The patriots might sign Brown to an extension to be our LT with Wynn being one of our guards. How much would Mason be worth to us then?

In any case, we cannot look at one or two people in isolation, AND we can always afford free up the money if the player is viewed to be worth the value to the patriots.

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I agree with you, but let me add this caveat..

This team will begin to prepare for life after Brady, and what we see now may be different for the future of this team.. investing heavily in a solid O line may not be out of the question... the adage that BB is prepared for anything may be more true now than ever....

DarrylS said:

I agree with you, but let me add this caveat..

This team will begin to prepare for life after Brady, and what we see now may be different for the future of this team.. investing heavily in a solid O line may not be out of the question... the adage that BB is prepared for anything may be more true now than ever....

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I will be blunt. Until we have a young quarterback or two on the 53, I will not be convinced that Belichick is prepared for Brady leaving. As of now, Hoyer would start if Brady left, and we would be in the same situation as so many other teams, trading for an OK player and paying him $20M a year. That may be a plan, but not really the preparation that we are used to.

I'm fine with the transition to a more run-based team, or rather, a less pass-based one without Brady. However, we still need to develop a quarterback. We could trade a 2nd for a QB and develop him, HOPING that Brady plays for 3 or 4 more years, but being PREPARED if he doesn't. Obviously, I'm fine if Belichick decided that none of the quarterbacks available were worth what it wold have taken. It doesn't follow that we shouldn't have a youngster or two on the team.

I say a youngster or TWO. If Belichick is OK with Hoyer for another 2-3 years, then only one is needed.

QUESTION
Who would likely be the better prospect for the patriots, a veteran we might get for a 2nd now, or someone that we could draft in the 2nd next year? I would note that this one pick would have marginal effect on the ability to get a top QB, since a bottom of the second pick will be largely irrelevant. Such a players will required the equivalent of at least a top 10 pick (essentially 3 firsts, or 2 plus a player).

What I ma suggesting is trying to find an acceptable quarterback. If one can be found, then perhaps Belichick won't have to mortgage the future to obtain a top quarterback, although that would still be Plan B (as it apparently was this past draft).

mgteich said:

QUESTION
Who would likely be the better prospect for the patriots, a veteran we might get for a 2nd now, or someone that we could draft in the 2nd next year? I would note that this one pick would have marginal effect on the ability to get a top QB, since a bottom of the second pick will be largely irrelevant. Such a players will required the equivalent of at least a top 10 pick (essentially 3 firsts, or 2 plus a player).

What I ma suggesting is trying to find an acceptable quarterback. If one can be found, then perhaps Belichick won't have to mortgage the future to obtain a top quarterback, although that would still be Plan B (as it apparently was this past draft).

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What seems to be an effort to get Baker Mayfield was interesting, if what was reported is true. I figure the Brady has two or three years left.. is Danny Etling a possibility?? Have to believe that in his 20 years of coaching this team, he has something in mind to prepare for the future... if not he will dispatch his minions far and wide to watch a bunch of unsung QB's that may fit the profile that they are looking for.

ESPN's Mike Reiss expects Patriots RG Shaq Mason to command more than $10 million annually on his next contract.

Bill Belichick's history lessons always made an impression

Zack Mason
Shaq Martin

DarrylS said:

...This team will begin to prepare for life after Brady, and what we see now may be different for the future of this team...investing heavily in a solid O line may not be out of the question...

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Indeed.
When the day comes that our starting QB is playing under a rookie (aka cheap) contract, then the money formerly allocated to Brady (or Grop) should instead be allocated to the Offensive Line in order to give the young QB the best possible chance to grow and succeed.

captain stone said:

Indeed.
When the day comes that our starting QB is playing under a rookie (aka cheap) contract, then the money formerly allocated to Brady (or Grop) should instead be allocated to the Offensive Line in order to give the young QB the best possible chance to grow and succeed.

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Sure. The patriots will find a quarterback who can start at pick 32 or 63. The reality is that this scenario isn't likely.


Consider this last draft. We MIGHT have been able to get a top Brady replacement for 3 firsts.
Sure the one contract his less than Brady. More savings might (or might not) be had by using the 3 firsts and having 3 players on rookie contracts instead of signing vets.