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Overall We Are Not As Good As Last Year


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We need a coach and a q, oh wait
 
Not opposed to you being right. We’ll likely have to do some restructures if we want to do so though.

What moves are you expecting could happen?
I dunno know. I think they need more talent on D an BB knows it. I see them moving up in the draft to fill that need. LB? DE? Not sure.
 
I dunno know. I think they need more talent on D an BB knows it. I see them moving up in the draft to fill that need. LB? DE? Not sure.
Would just be curious as to what guys we could land at this point. I do see BB making some more “reclamation project” trades on former high draft picks. But not sure we make a huge name addition there.

Who knows though.
 
From many of the posts, I conclude that we should not discuss the state of the team, compared to last year, or perhaps not at all, until the season starts, and perhaps not for a month thereafter.

OBVIOUSLY, it's true that we won't know what the team will be like until 6 weeks into the season.

I wanted to start a discussion of where we are now. I apologize to ken who thought that I would give a full-blown detailed argument. I left that for those wished to do so, or for after we've discussed the issues for awhile.

Usually, summary assessments give us a way to better evaluate new signings, the draft and what to expect. So sure, those who don't want to discuss the team until after the draft, after we see how players look in the pre-season, fine.

For the rest of us, we will speculate, as we have been doing since the SB.
 
From many of the posts, I conclude that we should not discuss the state of the team, compared to last year, or perhaps not at all, until the season starts, and perhaps not for a month thereafter.

OBVIOUSLY, it's true that we won't know what the team will be like until 6 weeks into the season.

I wanted to start a discussion of where we are now. I apologize to ken who thought that I would give a full-blown detailed argument. I left that for those wished to do so, or for after we've discussed the issues for awhile.

Usually, summary assessments give us a way to better evaluate new signings, the draft and what to expect. So sure, those who don't want to discuss the team until after the draft, after we see how players look in the pre-season, fine.

For the rest of us, we will speculate, as we have been doing since the SB.
Going in to last year, I thought the roster was nearly flawless. Was proved wrong pretty quick.

You just never know.
 
Going in to last year, I thought the roster was nearly flawless. Was proved wrong pretty quick.

You just never know.

Yes, the situation changes, day by day, month by month. If we judge that we are the best best and 5 key players are injured and we're no longer the best, was our original assessment incorrect/ Of course not. We deal with the information that we have and make the best WAG we can.
====
With regard to last year, we were the #1 team coming into camp, into the pre-season, into the playoffs, and arguably into the Super Bowl. [After all, most here argue that if J Jones were healthy, we would have won, or if Butler played, we would have won]. Perhaps, we were the #2 team in the NFL.

So, for me, the original assessment was correct last year. We were the best team in the NFL. So many, many things happened. Posters panicked, as they always do. And still, we were the best team as we entered the playoffs.
 
Sorry. I believe there will be major moves ahead.

yeah. We might trade a player that we posters consider to be a key player. We might trade a draft pick or two for a player or two. Trading draft picks for other picks isn't a major move to me.

Is this what you mean by major moves?
 
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Yes, we have taken some hits in free agency.

I believe bb drafted Garcia last year to take over left tackle from solder this year. Obviously garcia’s blood clots in the lungs put a wrinkle in that plan. But I expect bb to draft a left tackle early. (Miller and Crosby fit the bill. Maybe Williams if he falls to 31.)

However before we go Debbie downer on the
roster, we need to see what bb does in the draft. Chances are he drafts people that leave us scratching our heads, but come training camp, they usually are good players.


Bottom line - this is not a done deal yet. Too early to judge.
 
As of right now they are worse. They've had too many loses with nobody on the roster that are replaceable.

RB: Hill could be a pleasant surprise which would make the RB's better. Unless the Pats draft someone, the Pats are banking on Hill to make an impact or the RB's are significantly worse. I like Burkhead, but I don't want to see what he did last season where he and Chris Hogan jogs to the sideline, grimaces and then we don't know what the heck is going on. I think Gillisle is a good back but I don't think the Pats are using him correctly. He's not a power back like Jerome Bettis, Eddie George or LaGarrette Blount where they can out muscle their way out of poor blocking. Too many times they lined him up in obvious goaline formations where the defense just crashed the LOS and easily tackled him. I could see the frustration on Gillisle's face.

WR: How will Edelman respond from his injury? Will Chris Hogan catch a few balls and then exit the game? Will Malcolm Mitchell decide to play this year? Brandon Cooks is a really good WR but he can get bullied and taken out of a game. The Pats need the other guys to step up and help out Cooks.

TE:
Worse. Dwayne Allen is awful. He gives a few good blocks when he feels like it but he's replaceable. Ebron would've been nice but wasn't banking on him to be the next Hernandez. Apparently, Ebron didn't learn his lesson from the Lions and signed with another team with a bunch of losers.

LT:
Most important position on the O-line and they let Solder walk. This will be a huge loss. There's no one on the team that can step in and pick up the slack on a constant basis. Unless you're playing Madden, you can't just let guys like this walk and easily get his replacement in the draft or already on the roster.

DE: Wash. They aren't any better. You can't project Rivers will make them better when you don't even know what you have with him. Don't get me started on Clayborn. He is the Kony Ealy of last year.

LB: Biggest weakness on the team. Very odd that people on this board don't see it as teams kept throwing to their RB's out in the flat all season long and finally caught up to them in the Super Bowl. It looked like I was watching a game of Madden where you could run the same play over and over again and the computer AI can't pick up on it. Hightower coming back helps, but he is at his best when he can rush on 3rd downs. He's a very underrated pass rusher and doesn't do it often because of how bad the LB's are.

Slot CB: If they go with Rowe/Jones, they are just as bad as last year. They need someone else to compete with them.

S: I can't believe Eric Reid is still out there. Vaccaro stinks, Reid would significantly improve the safety position. He played a lot of LB last season with the 9ers. He's the guy BB has been looking for since his infatuation with Tank Williams.
 
As of right now they are worse. They've had too many loses with nobody on the roster that are replaceable.

RB: Hill could be a pleasant surprise which would make the RB's better. Unless the Pats draft someone, the Pats are banking on Hill to make an impact or the RB's are significantly worse. I like Burkhead, but I don't want to see what he did last season where he and Chris Hogan jogs to the sideline, grimaces and then we don't know what the heck is going on. I think Gillisle is a good back but I don't think the Pats are using him correctly. He's not a power back like Jerome Bettis, Eddie George or LaGarrette Blount where they can out muscle their way out of poor blocking. Too many times they lined him up in obvious goaline formations where the defense just crashed the LOS and easily tackled him. I could see the frustration on Gillisle's face.

WR: How will Edelman respond from his injury? Will Chris Hogan catch a few balls and then exit the game? Will Malcolm Mitchell decide to play this year? Brandon Cooks is a really good WR but he can get bullied and taken out of a game. The Pats need the other guys to step up and help out Cooks.

TE:
Worse. Dwayne Allen is awful. He gives a few good blocks when he feels like it but he's replaceable. Ebron would've been nice but wasn't banking on him to be the next Hernandez. Apparently, Ebron didn't learn his lesson from the Lions and signed with another team with a bunch of losers.

LT:
Most important position on the O-line and they let Solder walk. This will be a huge loss. There's no one on the team that can step in and pick up the slack on a constant basis. Unless you're playing Madden, you can't just let guys like this walk and easily get his replacement in the draft or already on the roster.

DE: Wash. They aren't any better. You can't project Rivers will make them better when you don't even know what you have with him. Don't get me started on Clayborn. He is the Kony Ealy of last year.

LB: Biggest weakness on the team. Very odd that people on this board don't see it as teams kept throwing to their RB's out in the flat all season long and finally caught up to them in the Super Bowl. It looked like I was watching a game of Madden where you could run the same play over and over again and the computer AI can't pick up on it. Hightower coming back helps, but he is at his best when he can rush on 3rd downs. He's a very underrated pass rusher and doesn't do it often because of how bad the LB's are.

Slot CB: If they go with Rowe/Jones, they are just as bad as last year. They need someone else to compete with them.

S: I can't believe Eric Reid is still out there. Vaccaro stinks, Reid would significantly improve the safety position. He played a lot of LB last season with the 9ers. He's the guy BB has been looking for since his infatuation with Tank Williams.
Gotta think draft selections will be made at OT, TE, LB, and maybe even RB.

Either secondary positions are also in the mix for a pick. I would like Reid as the 4th safety too, but it’s difficult if not impossible, to justify that kind of money for a guy who may see 15-20 snaps. I think that position is either addressed with one of the PS players they have been grooming or a draft pick.
 
We are always worse at this point because every year the team is different and it takes between 6-8 games to hit our stride.

Nothing personal but the thread is inane.

We do not know how the draft will go or who we will sign that gets cut elsewhere post draft.
Amen. We can't begin to tell what this squad will look like until July at the earliest.
 
As of right now they are worse. They've had too many loses with nobody on the roster that are replaceable.

I think I disagree with almost every single point you made. Amazing.

RB: Hill could be a pleasant surprise which would make the RB's better. Unless the Pats draft someone, the Pats are banking on Hill to make an impact or the RB's are significantly worse. I like Burkhead, but I don't want to see what he did last season where he and Chris Hogan jogs to the sideline, grimaces and then we don't know what the heck is going on. I think Gillisle is a good back but I don't think the Pats are using him correctly. He's not a power back like Jerome Bettis, Eddie George or LaGarrette Blount where they can out muscle their way out of poor blocking. Too many times they lined him up in obvious goaline formations where the defense just crashed the LOS and easily tackled him. I could see the frustration on Gillisle's face.

The Patriots are not banking on Hill to do anything. Have you seen his contract ? He is in a battle with Gillislee for the bigger back role. Lewis being gone will in the end not matter as his production will be replaceable from game to game and you never ever overpay a RB. There are too many of them and despite never paying any substantial money for the position our production there has been constant for years now.

Also saying Blount was able to muscle his way out of poor blocking might be among the most ignorant takes ever made on this board. If Blount didn't get good blocking he was dead in the water and lost yards 8 out of 10 times. It was only once he broke through the LOS that he actually became a dangerous player.

WR: How will Edelman respond from his injury? Will Chris Hogan catch a few balls and then exit the game? Will Malcolm Mitchell decide to play this year? Brandon Cooks is a really good WR but he can get bullied and taken out of a game. The Pats need the other guys to step up and help out Cooks.

If Brady doesn't throw dangerous passes to Hogan he will actually stay on the field. Blaming Hogan for getting injured repeatedly on passes into the middle of the field is a bit weird. The reality is that at this point Hogan is faster than players like Jordy Nelson and might even arguably be a better overall fit here for a fourth of the price.

Also MM doesn't decide anything but the medical staff does. He was back on the practice field last year and was shut down by the staff. So please stop implying that it is somehow on him.

Those other guys that need to step up are your GOAT TE and RB field. The offense doesn't run solely through WRs if you havent noticed.

TE: Worse. Dwayne Allen is awful. He gives a few good blocks when he feels like it but he's replaceable. Ebron would've been nice but wasn't banking on him to be the next Hernandez. Apparently, Ebron didn't learn his lesson from the Lions and signed with another team with a bunch of losers.

So bringing back the same unit is making the unit worse. Gotcha.

Also Allen doesnt give a few good blocks but had a tremendous year as a blocker. Him and Ebron dont even play the same position.

LT: Most important position on the O-line and they let Solder walk. This will be a huge loss. There's no one on the team that can step in and pick up the slack on a constant basis. Unless you're playing Madden, you can't just let guys like this walk and easily get his replacement in the draft or already on the roster.

They did it with Cannon as RT just a year ago. So saying there is no way is stupid. Whether it will work or not is a different story but they have shown in the past that they can overcome issues and have the GOAT OL coach. Finally you just dont pay a LT what the Giants gave him. This was a pure business decision dictated by a crazy market. Not much to critizise.

DE: Wash. They aren't any better. You can't project Rivers will make them better when you don't even know what you have with him. Don't get me started on Clayborn. He is the Kony Ealy of last year.

Clayborn can actually set the edge. Something that Ealy was allergic to. Just based on that your comparison is silly. Wise will have another year in the system and Rivers is a freebie. This position is overall stronger than last year. There is no question.

LB: Biggest weakness on the team. Very odd that people on this board don't see it as teams kept throwing to their RB's out in the flat all season long and finally caught up to them in the Super Bowl. It looked like I was watching a game of Madden where you could run the same play over and over again and the computer AI can't pick up on it. Hightower coming back helps, but he is at his best when he can rush on 3rd downs. He's a very underrated pass rusher and doesn't do it often because of how bad the LB's are.

LB was not the biggest weakness on the team. That was the DL with Branch falling apart which resulted in us being awful against the run. This obviously meant that every other unit had to do more than their job and be in mop up duty to help out against the run. If Shelton works out this will make everything immediately look better.

Also, given how our base defense nowadays essentially runs with 2 LBs there is not too much space for a third starter quality player in terms of money. Ideally we can pick up 1-2 players in the draft (one early, one late) that create more depth behind HT and KVN.

Slot CB: If they go with Rowe/Jones, they are just as bad as last year. They need someone else to compete with them.

Even though he might line up in the slot due to matchups Rowe is not a classic slot player. JJones played actually pretty well and was a key missing piece in the SB. Not sure what your issue with him is.
 
I’m very concernproud d with the O-line which was already mediocre

Ranked as one of the best run-blocking units all season (if not THE best).

Shaky in pass-pro at the start of the season, right after Solder found out that his son's cancer had returned (Solder himself has copped to not having his head in the game, early on). Straightened out for the middle part of the season, despite the loss of the starting RT. Got a little shakier towards the end when they were down to their 3rd-string RT and Hogan was out (not to mention that Brady was holding the ball a bit longer all season with Edelman out).

Considering the degree-of-difficulty posed by various circumstances, I thought the OL held up fairly well.
 
A lot of this ends up metastizing in season. IDIOTS were touting 16-0 last year. That lasted a hair over three hours after kickoff, with Edelman the first card to fall.

Then people were panicking that they would be terrible and they ended up with a lead with 5 minutes left in the Super Bowl with their opponent forced into a 4th down in their own territory.

FYPFY.
 
Definitely wonder if all of our big moves are finished, or if a Moss-esque trade will come later in the offseason.

Sometimes it seems to be a "big off-season move" that makes the most difference. Most of the time, it's been the sum of all the "little" ones - the moves that many fans seem to think are just so-so.
 
There is still a long way to go before they take the field. In 2007 they didn’t add Moss until the draft.
 
As of right now they are worse. They've had too many loses with nobody on the roster that are replaceable.

RB: Hill could be a pleasant surprise which would make the RB's better. Unless the Pats draft someone, the Pats are banking on Hill to make an impact or the RB's are significantly worse. I like Burkhead, but I don't want to see what he did last season where he and Chris Hogan jogs to the sideline, grimaces and then we don't know what the heck is going on. I think Gillisle is a good back but I don't think the Pats are using him correctly. He's not a power back like Jerome Bettis, Eddie George or LaGarrette Blount where they can out muscle their way out of poor blocking. Too many times they lined him up in obvious goaline formations where the defense just crashed the LOS and easily tackled him. I could see the frustration on Gillisle's face.

WR: How will Edelman respond from his injury? Will Chris Hogan catch a few balls and then exit the game? Will Malcolm Mitchell decide to play this year? Brandon Cooks is a really good WR but he can get bullied and taken out of a game. The Pats need the other guys to step up and help out Cooks.

TE:
Worse. Dwayne Allen is awful. He gives a few good blocks when he feels like it but he's replaceable. Ebron would've been nice but wasn't banking on him to be the next Hernandez. Apparently, Ebron didn't learn his lesson from the Lions and signed with another team with a bunch of losers.

LT:
Most important position on the O-line and they let Solder walk. This will be a huge loss. There's no one on the team that can step in and pick up the slack on a constant basis. Unless you're playing Madden, you can't just let guys like this walk and easily get his replacement in the draft or already on the roster.

DE: Wash. They aren't any better. You can't project Rivers will make them better when you don't even know what you have with him. Don't get me started on Clayborn. He is the Kony Ealy of last year.

LB: Biggest weakness on the team. Very odd that people on this board don't see it as teams kept throwing to their RB's out in the flat all season long and finally caught up to them in the Super Bowl. It looked like I was watching a game of Madden where you could run the same play over and over again and the computer AI can't pick up on it. Hightower coming back helps, but he is at his best when he can rush on 3rd downs. He's a very underrated pass rusher and doesn't do it often because of how bad the LB's are.

Slot CB: If they go with Rowe/Jones, they are just as bad as last year. They need someone else to compete with them.

S: I can't believe Eric Reid is still out there. Vaccaro stinks, Reid would significantly improve the safety position. He played a lot of LB last season with the 9ers. He's the guy BB has been looking for since his infatuation with Tank Williams.

RB: Agree for the most part. As an RBBC, it seems pretty solid overall to me. If the Pats get even 75% of the 2016 version of Hill (assuming he improves in pass-pro), he will have made the necessary impact.

Also, Burkhead may be a bit undervalued due to his injuries last season, which were: (1) ribs - highly unlikely to be repeated, much less a chronic issue; (2) a "knee injury" in the late season, from which he'd bounced back sufficiently by the SB to make a very solid contribution.

I'm not saying that either Hill or Burkhead will emerge to take the lead like Lewis did in 2017, but, it's an RBBC - neither of them really need to.

WR: Agree with pretty much everything. My biggest concern about WR is for 2019 and beyond. A further infusion of younger players seems necessary (though not necessarily rookies). With Edelman turning 32 in May and Hogan turning 30 in October, the trend begun with Mitchell (injury issues), Cooks (future cost issues) and Dorsett would appear to be a step in the right direction.

TE: I couldn't disagree more strongly about Allen. He was consistently excellent in both run-blocking and pass-pro (and Ebron was cut, in part, because he can do neither of those things well at all), and contributed immeasurably to the success of the Pats 2017 ground game. Even though it wasn't in evidence with the Pats in 2017, Allen was a decent receiver for the Colts (Ebron-level for a couple of seasons), so there's certainly potential that he'll contribute more in the 2018 passing game. Significant receiving contributions aren't really necessary for a guy in his role in the Pats offense, but consistently good blocking is.

In any case, the TE group isn't "worse" unless Gronk is gone.

LT: "They" didn't "let Solder walk". They couldn't afford to keep him without bankrupting the rest of the roster significantly. Certainly OT will be an issue for awhile, but not necessarily the extreme disaster that many folks are certain it will be. In any case, given the OT situation, the very last thing to do would be to get rid of a player like Allen. In fact, it could help the offense a lot more in a lot of different ways if the Pats were to acquire a second guy like Allen rather than a guy like Ebron.

Run-blocking and pass-pro is a team effort; it's not just on the five OL or on any one of them, individually.

DE: I also couldn't disagree more with your Clayborn-Ealy comparison. Clayborn is a far more experienced and disciplined player who has demonstrated that he can consistently set the edge against the run (something that Ealy couldn't do - or wouldn't - and an issue that dogged the Pats all season long, and that had an indirect negative consequence on the pass rush and coverage). Also, Wise did pretty well as a rookie last season, so there's at least potential for him to improve. Eric Lee was also essentially a rookie (he'd played zero D-snaps in his two-year career before joining the Pats in week-12).

And don't discount the impact that the return of Valentine and the acquisition of Shelton (to replace the totally ineffectual 2017 version of Branch) may have on the pass rush as well as on the run-D. Pressuring the QB is a team effort; it's not just on the DE's.

LB: And one of the primary reasons that opponents were able to hurt the Pats with RB-passing was that the run-/edge-contain by the DL sucked - which left play-action passing wide open pretty much all the time. It wasn't just on the LBs - who were trying to compensate for DL run-D deficiencies.

Furthermore, the biggest weakness in the LB corps itself was a lack of bodies, and especially experienced bodies. The LBs who ended up taking 75% of the D-snaps entered 2017 with a combined total career NFL snaps roughly equivalent to one average season from Hightower.

In terms of just the number of bodies, the LB corps will gain HT, Langi and Rivers (at 248 lbs, I'd project Rivers at OLB more than at DE). However, that still doesn't address the inexperience issue. Even though Van Noy and Roberts (and Marquis Flowers) now have, collectively, nearly double the D-snaps that they had at the start of last season, it seems to me that the Pats may add another veteran LB before the draft. The guy doesn't need to be a world-beater, just competent (and able to contribute more than Harris did in 2017).

Slot CB: Aside from inconsistency, the biggest issue with Rowe is staying on the field. I'm not sure how to fix that part, assuming that it's fixable. When he's healthy and on his game, Rowe can be pretty good - though mostly on the right boundary, not so much in the slot. Rowe is under contract for just one more season (and at a mere $1.1M). At worst, he should be a decent backup for Jason McCourty.

OTOH, Jon Jones consistently averaged between 35% and 40% of the D-snaps in 2017 - NOT including the 85%-95% he played while both Rowe and Gilmore were out at the same time. I think most fans don't realize that Jones played that much because his name wasn't called very often - which is a very good thing for a player in coverage. Meanwhile, Jones' $633k cap hit is so low that, when the numbers for Tobin or Waddle become official, they'll knock that cap hit out of the Top-51 that count against the cap. Jones is also an RFA at the end of 2018 and his floor is "special teams ace", so he's likely to continue to have significant value as a solid reserve, regardless.

I think that there's very likely to be competition at CB for the off-season and Camp, because there nearly always is. But I don't see slot CB as being any major issue, especially with the 3-safety nickel seeming to have become the dominant version.

S: BB's infatuation with Tank Williams (and a couple-three other similar DBs who've been on the roster in past seasons without contributing much) was mostly about trying to find/develop the next Rodney Harrison, I think.

However, the coverage game for safeties has changed quite a bit over the last few seasons. While Reid seems to be an excellent (if not elite) player whose skill set also seems to fit the Pats' current schemes, he seems likely to be almost as expensive as Devin McCourty already is (~$12M). He also wouldn't be an enormously significant upgrade over the three starting safeties the Pats have now (night-and-day over Richards, though!). And, while Reid is 26 - younger than the current average age of 29 among the Pats three starters, he doesn't necessarily improve the longer term outlook.

It seems to me that now is the time for the Pats to take another stab at drafting a high-end developmental candidate to eventually replace Chung or Devin long term (both turn 31 in Camp this season). So, maybe the other Reid would be more appropriate (not to mention significantly cheaper). Grigsby (6001/225), who's already established himself as a very good special teamer, could also emerge as an LB/SS hybrid. Who knows?

All-in-all, a good effort by you to even attempt to break it all down, position-by position. Thanks for that.
 
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