Musings Regard The OL

50-yard-line said:

Maybe Andrew Jelks is finally staying healthy?

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Vanderbilt coach is on record saying that Jelks was the teams best player when he arrived in 2014. Seems like the talent is there, you never know.

Patriots Mystery Man Andrew Jelks Has A Ways To Go After First NFL Practices

Those guys are hard to find,” Belichick said Thursday, regarding offensive tackles. “If you’re tackle-poor, then I think that can show up a lot quicker than being poor at other positions.”

Interesting quote, given their current situation.

Hercules Rockefeller said:

I'm seeing left tackle unfolding like corner did in 2015, after Revis, Browner and Arrington left. Bradley Fletcher was the only vet addition, the only draftee Daryl Roberts in round 7. Patsfans dot com was very worried/angry at the team. The Pats had more faith in Malcolm Butler and Logan Ryan than the board, and were correct.

We'll know more after the draft. They may end up trading up to get a tackle; my hunch is if they draft one, it's no earlier than round 4. As for Garcia's weight and health prognosis, the team knows a lot more than we do. Same with Andrew Jelks and his knees. They seem have a high opinion of Cole Croston. Cameron Fleming too; it remains to be seen if they like him more than other teams. One of Fleming or Waddle returning would help.

Garcia and Jelks have legit skills when/if healthy; Garcia's athletic ability and college tape impress. Not the first to mention that, in general, college offensive linemen are not well prepared for the NFL right now. That has to factor in the value of taking a tackle early.

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There's a huge difference between 2015 CB and 2018 LT. There were candidates to step up at CB, and Butler was a shutdown corner his rookie preseason. Currently, the Patriots do not seem to even have a guy who would suit up to play at left tackle.

For the heck of it, re-watched 2016 opening day NE @ Ariz with Fleming starting at LT (& no Gronk). He faced Chandler Jones the majority of the game & managed to hold his own with some help here & there. He also had an impressive 1 v 1 vs. Campbell that he held long enough for a 30 yard play to Mitchell. The team won & had nearly 400 yards of offense.

As long as we bring one of Fleming or Waddle back in the fold (preferably Waddle), I probably won't take part in the media LT hysteria over the summer. Both these players are vets with multiple games started in their careers & both have had impressive moments (Waddle v. Watt week 2 2017).

These two are more Kyle Van Noy level starters than anything close to Jordan Richards. A good chunk of the league has had Richards caliber LTs ruin their offenses - Seattle, Cincinnati, Dallas lost a playoff spot due to their backup, 2016 Vikings, etc. Fleming & Waddle aren't ideal but they are nowhere near turnstiles.

Now, if we enter the draft with just Tobin & the UDFAs, hysteria for the win.

Elijah said:

There's a huge difference between 2015 CB and 2018 LT. There were candidates to step up at CB, and Butler was a shutdown corner his rookie preseason. Currently, the Patriots do not seem to even have a guy who would suit up to play at left tackle.

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Other than Logan Ryan, they were rolling with some real unknowns. Butler played well in preseason but hardly got any snaps in 2014. Mostly the comparison I'm making is in the board's perception. There was talk of McCourty moving back to corner. Many couldn't fathom not drafting corners high. If they go tackle early in the draft, that's cool because they've done well drafting linemen early. As of now I don't expect it. Opinion may change if they lose both Waddle and Fleming.

Elijah said:

There's a huge difference between 2015 CB and 2018 LT. There were candidates to step up at CB, and Butler was a shutdown corner his rookie preseason. Currently, the Patriots do not seem to even have a guy who would suit up to play at left tackle.

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If a guy can play RT, he can play LT. Doesn't mean he'll be good or even necessarily adequate, but it's not like taking a safety and shifting him to corner or something drastic like that. Cross training on the OL has been trending for years. The situation isn't ideal right now, but it's a common situation amongst NFL teams, with the overall ability level being down in recent years due to college offensive scheme trends. We are focused on the Patriots, so we are naturally going to view the situation in a vacuum, but the circumstances are far from unique.

EddardSnow67 said:

If a guy can play RT, he can play LT. Doesn't mean he'll be good or even necessarily adequate, but it's not like taking a safety and shifting him to corner or something drastic like that.

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This is the kind of attitude that greatly limits the playing time of quarterbacks. If someone can play RT, then he can play RG. If he can play LT, he can play LG. Since LT's are the cream of the top, they can usually play RT.

HOWEVER, LT's are NOT, are NOT easy to find. Just converting RT's doesn't work.

That being said, Scar has worked with Cannon for many years, and Cannon may be ready to play LT.

mgteich said:

This is the kind of attitude that greatly limits the playing time of quarterbacks. If someone can play RT, then he can play RG. If he can play LT, he can play LG. Since LT's are the cream of the top, they can usually play RT.

HOWEVER, LT's are NOT, are NOT easy to find. Just converting RT's doesn't work.

That being said, Scar has worked with Cannon for many years, and Cannon may be ready to play LT.

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There's no attitude involved. It's a fact. You can put together a decent OL without having a "true" LT. It changes a lot of things, sure, but it's doable. My point is that, if it were really necessary to have a premium guy at LT to be successful or keep your QB upright with reasonable consistency, about 25 of the 32 teams would have no prayer of putting out a decent offense from season to season.

Again, this is the trend on the OL in the NFL. Cross training is how teams keep it together over the course of a season. If you look at the snap counts of OL on average, most teams rarely get the type of consistency you would ideally like to have from their five best OL.

Teams are also in the midst of a "best five" era in terms of management of personnel. It's necessary, because of the relative dearth of what would be considered to be prototypical OL prospects.

The Eagles, for example, used nine OL in 2017. You really can't look at the OL as position specific right now and hope to be consistently successful, unless you get incredibly good luck regarding injuries and other attrition.

In fact, you contradicted your own point by making the very correct observation that it's really difficult to find those prototypical left tackles.

So, reasonably speaking, if there are, say, five of those guys in the league at any given time (or you can make it ten, it's the same idea), obviously most teams aren't going to have one, plus, since they're at a premium, getting one is going to be expensive and impact what you can do at other positions.

Yet teams succeed without that luxury all the time. It's a trend in the NFL.

mgteich said:

This is the kind of attitude that greatly limits the playing time of quarterbacks. If someone can play RT, then he can play RG. If he can play LT, he can play LG. Since LT's are the cream of the top, they can usually play RT.

HOWEVER, LT's are NOT, are NOT easy to find. Just converting RT's doesn't work.

That being said, Scar has worked with Cannon for many years, and Cannon may be ready to play LT.

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The Patriot's solution to this dilemma will be to shift Cannon or Thuney to left
tackle. Unfortunately, this is not the ideal solution because it disrupts the rest
of the line. Fleming and Waddle will be on the road this week seeking jobs elsewhere.
The Patriots can't even re-sign backups.

Jimke said:

The Patriot's solution to this dilemma will be to shift Cannon or Thuney to left
tackle. Unfortunately, this is not the ideal solution because it disrupts the rest
of the line. Fleming and Waddle will be on the road this week seeking jobs elsewhere.
The Patriots can't even re-sign backups.

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I think their strategy will be to get the best five OL on the field at any given time. That may entail what you suggest, or it may not.

EddardSnow67 said:

I think their strategy will be to get the best five OL on the field at any given time. That may entail what you suggest, or it may not.

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I'm one of those guys who is all shook up. If the season started today (thank God it doesn't), our two starting tackles would be Croston and Cannon. Their backups would
be an underweight tackle (Garcia) on NFI, a tackle on NFI for two years (Jelks), and
a mediocrity (Tobin).

Jimke said:

I'm one of those guys who is all shook up. If the season started today (thank God it doesn't), our two starting tackles would be Croston and Cannon. Their backups would
be an underweight tackle (Garcia) on NFI, a tackle on NFI for two years (Jelks), and
a mediocrity (Tobin).

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Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not saying that I'm happy with where they are right now on the OL. I just think they'll put an adequate group out there when all is said and done. I don't think your concern is at all unwarranted.

Cameron Fleming to visit Cowboys

Interesting that. Fleming certainly isn't looking to be a starter in Dallas.

A couple of comments on the comments:

1. We should expect very little from Garcia this season. Last year was a total waste. He was a developmental project to begin with coming from a small school. He's been a full year without any football, so this season is even a MORE developmental season....assuming he gets back his weight and strength by the end of July. He kid needs a TON of practice reps just to become a decent backup. There is no way he should be figuring in the starting LT question this season

2. I think moving Cannon to LT would be the least invasive adjustment to solving the Pats LT issue. With a full pre-season of work, I'd like to think he could make the adjustment. Its not like he's never played LT. I would contend that he's a better pass blocker than Solder to start.

3. It was mentioned in another thread but bears repeating. Lombardi made a good point about the dilution of the differences between Left and Right Tackles over the last several years. Offenses have evolved to make the importance of the so-called "blind side" less critical than they were. Now you might disagree, but the way he explained it made sense (at least to me)

So like when there were CLEAR distinctions between FS's and SS's, nowadays those distinctions have become more blurred. Same thing with left and right tackles. There was a time when it seemed each required different skill sets. Today, given the evolution of the way offenses are playing, not so much

Should be some good cornerbacks available at 31. However, if they end up taking a tackle there I'd be ok with it. Scar has a pretty good track record with first through 3rd round draftees. If they did their homework and think one is worth it, I say go for it.

If the team played a game tomorrow, our three active OT's would be Cannon, Croston and Tobin.

However, the season does NOT start tomorrow. Lots could happened between now and Game 1.
1) sign Fleming
2) sign Waddle
3) sign someone else
4) trade for someone
5) draft an LT who develops enough to make the active roster
6) great recovery by Garcia, enough to make the active roster
7) great recovery by Jelks, enough to make the active roster
8) more than one of the above 7 possibilities

Jimke said:

I'm one of those guys who is all shook up. If the season started today (thank God it doesn't), our two starting tackles would be Croston and Cannon. Their backups would
be an underweight tackle (Garcia) on NFI, a tackle on NFI for two years (Jelks), and
a mediocrity (Tobin).

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Jimke said:

I'm one of those guys who is all shook up.

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I'm one of those guys that refuses to be 'all shook up' on March 18th. You should try it.

mgteich said:

If the team played a game tomorrow, our three active OT's would be Cannon, Croston and Tobin.

However, the season does NOT start tomorrow. Lots could happened between now and Game 1.
1) sign Fleming
2) sign Waddle
3) sign someone else
4) trade for someone
5) draft an LT who develops enough to make the active roster
6) great recovery by Garcia, enough to make the active roster
7) great recovery by Jelks, enough to make the active roster
8) more than one of the above 7 possibilities

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You are an optimist. I expect to lose Fleming and Waddle on Monday or Tuesday.
There is nothing worthwhile left in free agency, Tobin types. Expecting anything
from Garcia and Jelks is probably not realistic. The Patriot's best bet is probably
a trade for a decent veteran someone is trying to dump or investing a #1 pick and having Scarnecchia coach the heck out of him. Avoid switching Thuney to LT or Cannon to LT. Doing this screws up two line spots.

Why would you expect to lose both of them? There is a pretty good chance we keep Waddle.

mgteich said:

This is the kind of attitude that greatly limits the playing time of quarterbacks. If someone can play RT, then he can play RG. If he can play LT, he can play LG. Since LT's are the cream of the top, they can usually play RT.

HOWEVER, LT's are NOT, are NOT easy to find. Just converting RT's doesn't work.

That being said, Scar has worked with Cannon for many years, and Cannon may be ready to play LT.

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Well the difference between playing LT and playing RT has really only been (since the passing era started) the different types of DEs that play on the left of right side.
Historically, based upon the old concept that the TE plays on the offensive right you would have LDEs that were bigger, stouter and better run defenses and RDEs that were smaller faster and pass rush specialists.
This trend is stopping, and teams that follow the concept will flip flop their DEs to matchup against the specific OTs. In other words there isn’t really much difference any more between a LT and a RT.