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Browns trade Shelton to Patriots


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The only team that Danny Shelton has ever known has been arguably the most pathetic franchise in the history of the league at the deepest depths of their despair. Since you know about football, physics or team sports you know that a single defensive tackle against an entire opposing offensive line is a lose/lose proposition no matter how good.

I also know that being on a bad team is not a talisman against all negative analysis, and that Shelton was not, in fact, the only defensive player on the field for the Browns.

We got shellacked by the Eagles because Malcolm Brown was our only good defensive tackle, you may disagree but in the real world football doesn't happen in a vacuum. Ricky Jean Francois isn't a healthy Alan Branch or Vincent Valentine... the guy had no job outside of Dunkins until the Pats called.

The Patriots defense got roasted for a bunch of reasons. The death of Alan Branch's will to play football was certainly among them, but it wasn't all because another 2015 disappointment at DL was the team's "only good defensive tackle".

Football is a TEAM sport, Randy Moss had 1000 yards because in year 1 Kerry Collins was his QB. In year two it was two guys you never heard of (Andrew Walter, Aaron Brooks).

Moss had put up big years with bad QBs before. You need to stop with the Moss comparison stuff. You've got nothing there.

In my estimation they just got a blue chip DT, if I misunderstood your response I apologize.

He has not played like a blue chip DT to this point in his NFL career. He's been a disappointment, though not a bust. He's now on a team that generally tries to conform plan to talent rather than talent to plan, and that may allow his game to blossom. I wish him well, and will love it if he ups his game, but neither he nor Brown has been anything to write home about at DL to this point in their careers, so we may all want to do some praying that Valentine shows some game this year.

As an aside, it's been far too long since this team found a Seymour, a Wilfork, or even a Warren in the draft, and that's got to change.
 
It's completely irrelevant to what was being discussed, and your assertion that it's not doesn't make it so. Neither does your assertion that Shelton is a system fit make that so, or make his age relevant.

I see his age as relevant because he has had not had enough time in the league to decide what he is. Your standard for his being a good acquisition is peak Alan Branch. We agree; I have no visions of him being the next Vince Wilfork. Branch himself was considered to have had a disappointing career upon arriving in New England. Shelton can be considered to have disappointed based on where he was drafted, but that's not of any real concern to his new team (save for his option price next year being high). You saying his age is not relevant does not make it anymore so than me taking the opposite opinion. 3 schemes in 3 years is a factor that clouds evaluation, in my opinion.

As for him being a scheme fit, it is reasonable to deduce that Belichick et al feel that he is, and he has been more effective playing the nose in the NFL than any other spot. Belichick had good things to say about him before their game in 2016, when he was playing more to his strengths. He was certainly not considered a fit in the Browns' scheme by Gregg Williams, who likes to drop his defensive tackles into coverage. I do not believe Gregg Williams to be a great defensive mind. The Browns' writer I follow is adamant that he has been effective when playing to his strengths, and I have seen numerous clips that show this. The general consensus from what I have read from those that follow the Browns is that he was never going to live up to the 12th overall pick but he was a good run stuffer who is improving.

Out of curiosity, what has brought you to the conclusion that Shelton is not a good player? I do not think he is great, but I do think he is good when used in his ideal role, and a good nose tackle is a priority after last season's poor run defense.
 
I see his age as relevant because he has had not had enough time in the league to decide what he is. Your standard for his being a good acquisition is peak Alan Branch. We agree; I have no visions of him being the next Vince Wilfork. Branch himself was considered to have had a disappointing career upon arriving in New England. Shelton can be considered to have disappointed based on where he was drafted, but that's not of any real concern to his new team (save for his option price next year being high).

Shelton's play has been a disappointment for his supposed talent, as well as his draft status. This is a guy that Mayock (unfairly) put on the Wilfork level, after all and, even though that was unfair, he was certainly supposed to be more than he's been. We'll both take peak Alan Branch, as you say but, as you note, his high theoretical potential comes with a fair price tag next season.

You saying his age is not relevant does not make it anymore so than me taking the opposite opinion.

That is true. What makes his age irrelevant is not me saying it's irrelevant. What makes his age irrelevant is the fact that his age is irrelevant. The Patriots don't have an age based system of play for their DTs.

3 schemes in 3 years is a factor that clouds evaluation, in my opinion.

Everything clouds evaluation when people use whatever it is to come to a conclusion that is unwelcome. Not every player who's left Cleveland has suddenly become a world beater.

As for him being a scheme fit, it is reasonable to deduce that Belichick et al feel that he is, and he has been more effective playing the nose in the NFL than any other spot. Belichick had good things to say about him before their game in 2016, when he was playing more to his strengths. He was certainly not considered a fit in the Browns' scheme by Gregg Williams, who likes to drop his defensive tackles into coverage. I do not believe Gregg Williams to be a great defensive mind. The Browns' writer I follow is adamant that he has been effective when playing to his strengths, and I have seen numerous clips that show this. The general consensus from what I have read from those that follow the Browns is that he was never going to live up to the 12th overall pick but he was a good run stuffer who is improving.

It's also reasonable to deduce that BB took a flier on an available player, regardless of fit, just as he did with Ealy and Mingo. We don't really know the why of it, and it doesn't really matter anyway, at this point.

Out of curiosity, what has brought you to the conclusion that Shelton is not a good player? I do not think he is great, but I do think he is good when used in his ideal role, and a good nose tackle is a priority after last season's poor run defense.

He just hasn't been a particularly good player. It's not really something specific bringing me to a conclusion. It's seeing that he hasn't been particularly good. And, in the good news department, here's where his age does actually matter. He's still young enough that he could put it together. Whether it's a question of scheme, team, maturity, or other factor, we'll get answers, and I hope they're good ones.
 
As an aside, it's been far too long since this team found a Seymour, a Wilfork, or even a Warren in the draft, and that's got to change.

Malcolm Brown and Vincent Valentine were in the rotation of the #1 ranked 2016 Super Bowl champion defense, add Shelton to that and you have magic. Oh yeah, both of those guys were drafted, Valentine if healthy was a straight up steal in the 3rd round.
 
Malcolm Brown and Vincent Valentine were the rotation of the #1 ranked 2016 Super Bowl champion defense, add Shelton to that and you have magic.

rofl.gif


Belichick and Brady took a dumpster fire of a defense to within about a minute of a SB victory in 2011. So, I really hope, for the sake of people's future confidence in your ability to analyze players, that you posted that because you've been drinking heavily this evening, and not because you think it's some definitive point about their play.

You know who else was a part of that 2016 Super Bowl champion defense?

Logan Ryan
Jabaal Sheard
Eric Rowe
Shea McClellin
Alan Branch

Where was the magic for those players in 2017?
 
rofl.gif


Belichick and Brady took a dumpster fire of a defense to within about a minute of a SB victory in 2011. So, I really hope, for the sake of people's future confidence in your ability to analyze players, that you posted that because you've been drinking heavily this evening, and not because you think it's some definitive point about their play.

You know who else was a part of that 2016 Super Bowl champion defense?

Logan Ryan
Jabaal Sheard
Eric Rowe
Shea McClellin
Alan Branch

Where was the magic for those players in 2017?

I don't follow, you don't think the defense that lead the entire NFL in fewest points allowed in 2016 and won the Super Bowl was the best defense? Or do you dismiss all the injuries in 2017 as a non-factor?

Brady needed that defense in 2016 to get by Houston, he also needed Dion Lewis to score a TD three different ways. Brady played like dog meat.

Football is a TEAM game.

If we can't agree 2016 was a good defense, we'd best just agree to disagree.
 
Malcolm Brown and Vincent Valentine were in the rotation of the #1 ranked 2016 Super Bowl champion defense, add Shelton to that and you have magic.

Football is a TEAM game.
The run defense was night and day different in 2016, but how much does your second statement come into play?

In other words, do you think it was more of having a better group of LBs and arguably our best defensive player in Hightower, healthy? Or do you think it was more of having the dominance of 2016 run stuffing Branch?

Either way, we should be in a better place next season since the bar was set so low, but I definitely agree with you and Deus that we need to hit on at least 1-2 front seven players in the draft, especially if you’re as skeptical as I am as to whether or not they’ll choose to pay Trey Flowers market value FA money.
 
The run defense was night and day different in 2016, but how much does your second statement come into play?

In other words, do you think it was more of having a better group of LBs and arguably our best defensive player in Hightower, healthy? Or do you think it was more of having the dominance of 2016 run stuffing Branch?

Either way, we should be in a better place next season since the bar was set so low, but I definitely agree with you and Deus that we need to hit on at least 1-2 front seven players in the draft, especially if you’re as skeptical as I am as to whether or not they’ll choose to pay Trey Flowers market value FA money.

Injuries to Branch, Valentine, Hightower, Derek Rivers, Harvey Langi, Jonathan Jones and finally Patrick Chung is what lost us 2017.

Football is won in the trenches, the 2016 Branch/Brown/Valentine is a lot better then Brown/Francois/Butler or Guy. Our linebacking injuries made it substantially worse. We ran on fumes all season on defense, they collapsed in game 19 against the best team in the league.
 
I don't follow, you don't think the defense that lead the entire NFL in fewest points allowed in 2016 and won the Super Bowl was the best defense? Or do you dismiss all the injuries in 2017 as a non-factor?

Brady needed that defense in 2016 to get by Houston, he also needed Dion Lewis to score a TD three different ways. Brady played like dog meat.

Football is a TEAM game.

If we can't agree 2016 was a good defense, we'd best just agree to disagree.

I think you went from "A" to "Z" while ignoring every other letter in the alphabet. You seem to be ignoring some obvious things about your claims:

"you don't think the defense that lead the entire NFL in fewest points allowed in 2016 and won the Super Bowl was the best defense?"

By points? Sure. By actual defensive play? That's a lot more debatable. This team frequently outplays its overall skill level, thanks in no small part to coaching, excellent ST play and the offense that changes the way teams have to play the game. But that's not really the issue. The issue is your comment about Brown and Valentine (and Shelton). For example, that 2016 Defense was tied for 8th (8-11) in run defense, per attempt. Do we have to just ignore that because you've got wood about Shelton and seem (so far) to be a ridiculously over the top sort of Patriots homer, or do we get to note that as something worth at least looking at when discussing the play of Brown, Valentine and company relative to the rest of the league, and the rest of the defense?

"Football is a TEAM game."

Well, yeah, but that argument works both ways. Talented players need help, but less skilled players get carried along.

"Or do you dismiss all the injuries in 2017 as a non-factor?"

Hightower was a huge loss. He might have been able to make up for some of the bad play in front of him. That doesn't excuse the play of others, though, as Branch found out firsthand.

"Brady needed that defense in 2016 to get by Houston, he also needed Dion Lewis to score a TD three different ways. Brady played like dog meat."

And now you're trying to focus on one particular game as if it's definitive, when it isn't. But, since you went there, let's note that the defense you're using as fapping material played poorly enough that Brady had to lead the greatest comeback in SB history in order to win that thing, as it allowed Matt Ryan to enjoy an all too impressive 144.1 QB rating. And let's also notice that they were facing Osweiler in that Houston game, so it wasn't as if the defense had to pack a lunch and get dirty in order to keep that score low.

"If we can't agree 2016 was a good defense, we'd best just agree to disagree."

And here we have you setting up yet another straw man.
 
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Here's some clips of Shelton when playing in his best role. He can be effective, and I am happy about this trade. Found multiple clips of him dropping into coverage; unlike Belichick and Flores, Gregg Williams is a massive dunce.












Jake Burns on Twitter
 
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Man I was really struggling to get this "post videos from Twitter" bit down, wasn't as hard as I thought but took a minute
 
And, in the good news department, here's where his age does actually matter. He's still young enough that he could put it together. Whether it's a question of scheme, team, maturity, or other factor, we'll get answers, and I hope they're good ones.

Yes, his youth is good, we agree
 
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The only issue I have with this trade is having to make a decision on his option in May, as much as I want to believe that this is good for the Pats and they can play to his strengths, a very short window for making the decision to pick it up or extend..
 

I've just watched a bunch of film of Shelton on gamepass. This guy is better than the 2016 Branch. He's not a Wilfork type of stud but definitely a stud.

1. Watch how he looks at the personnel while lined up. He is constantly gazing and watching for motion in the backfield. I've seen him switch stances after motion. This guy studies film and uses it.

2. He can command and handle double teams. In zone blocking schemes he'll beat it.

3. He hustles every play. He's on the slower side so let's call it shustles. But he still makes plays 10-20 yards away from his position.

4. He has a nice inside burst move he uses when one on one.

5. Very smart player.

6. He enjoys playing the game. He gets pumped after a good defensive play whether he made it or not.

7. (Edit) - He clearly understands 2 gapping technique and does it well.

This guy is an awesome pickup. When the Pats play 3-4 he's a perfect NT on the LOS. When the Pats play 4-3 he and VV will overpower most if not all offensive lines.
 
The only issue I have with this trade is having to make a decision on his option in May, as much as I want to believe that this is good for the Pats and they can play to his strengths, a very short window for making the decision to pick it up or extend..

You take the option. He's worth it.
 
The only issue I have with this trade is having to make a decision on his option in May, as much as I want to believe that this is good for the Pats and they can play to his strengths, a very short window for making the decision to pick it up or extend..

It is guaranteed for injury only until the next league year. You can always rescind it. The way it is designed it really is a no brainer.
 
I've just watched a bunch of film of Shelton on gamepass. This guy is better than the 2016 Branch. He's not a Wilfork type of stud but definitely a stud.

1. Watch how he looks at the personnel while lined up. He is constantly gazing and watching for motion in the backfield. I've seen him switch stances after motion. This guy studies film and uses it.

2. He can command and handle double teams. In zone blocking schemes he'll beat it.

3. He hustles every play. He's on the slower side so let's call it shustles. But he still makes plays 10-20 yards away from his position.

4. He has a nice inside burst move he uses when one on one.

5. Very smart player.

6. He enjoys playing the game. He gets pumped after a good defensive play whether he made it or not.

7. (Edit) - He clearly understands 2 gapping technique and does it well.

This guy is an awesome pickup. When the Pats play 3-4 he's a perfect NT on the LOS. When the Pats play 4-3 he and VV will overpower most if not all offensive lines.
Liked for "shustles."
 
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