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The Patriots Should Bring Back Both LaAdrian Waddle, Cameron Fleming


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Thank you for the explanation. I misunderstood part of the discussion.

BTW, I think that even of everyone is signed, it might be right to draft the OT of the future. That is even more true if only 2 of our OT are re-signed.

I do agree that drafting is based on value. If the value isn't there, then belichick won't an OT. If the need and value are great enough, he might trade up.

Agree 100%. There are so many different ways this could go, and we still don't have any of the starting variables set yet.
 
I think waddle is a fair good back up T and if not a very hand Starting RT when he played, hope he can stay healthy though
 
Garcia lost 45lbs to a mystery illness while he was on the NFI List. Jelks hasn't played a football game since the end of the 2014 college season. Neither has played a down of NFL level football.

But you're "fine" with them as backups?
Were you fine with Waddle and Fleming as backups last year or two years ago?
 
Meanwhile, the Pats kept Croston (6054/315-320) on the 53-man roster all season. During Camp/pre-season, he was reportedly practicing at both tackle and guard, so there may be some positional versatility under development with Croston, too. Croston is also more athletic than either Waddle or Fleming.

Still, the lynch-pin for the OL is still re-signing Solder (if he still wants to play).
Personally, I believe that you’re correct about Croston’s versatility at tackle, too. That said, you and I seem to be in the minority on this one.
 
Personally, I believe that you’re correct about Croston’s versatility at tackle, too. That said, you and I seem to be in the minority on this one.
I feel like you let Solder walk and resign Waddle and or Flemming for half the price.
 
I feel like you let Solder walk and resign Waddle and or Flemming for half the price.

Hmmm. That's sounds like sacrilege but interesting nonetheless.

@maineman209 what do you think of this?
 
Were you fine with Waddle and Fleming as backups last year or two years ago?

Two guys with NFL starting experience versus two guys who haven't played a down of NFL-level football or football of any kind in a year or two?

Yes, I was significantly more comfortable with Waddle and Fleming as backups than I would be with Garcia and Jelks at this point.
 
Personally, I believe that you’re correct about Croston’s versatility at tackle, too. That said, you and I seem to be in the minority on this one.

Well, at this point it's still potential versatility, but I think that's a reasonable projection based on the history of how Scar has managed the OL. He seems to have always worked hard to have at least one guy like Dan Connolly.
 
I feel like you let Solder walk and resign Waddle and or Flemming for half the price.

First of all, I don't think Solder will "walk" in the sense of signing with another team if the Pats don't offer him enough. Solder's particular situation is far from being a typical UFA scenario. With his son's ongoing cancer condition, and the deep trust relationships that the Solder family has built with the medical people and facilities in Boston who are helping them deal with that (I'm speaking from personal experience on this), I'm 99% certain that Solder re-signs with the Pats or he retires and stays in Boston for the duration.

As an aside, Solder's last contract was 2 years, $20M, $19.9M guaranteed. Not that I think Solder even cares anymore about the contract status BS, but his $11.16M 2017 cap hit made him the 5th-highest-compensated LT in the league. I'd project his next contract with the Pats (if there is one), might be 2 years, $24M-$26M with around $22M guaranteed, and a 2018 cap hit of around $10M-$11M.

Anyway, IF the Pats are going to be without Solder for 2018 (and I really, really, don't want that to happen), I think I'd trust Fleming at LT a bit more than I would Waddle or Cannon (or any rookie). No, I'm not saying that Fleming would be even a "good" long term solution, but he has started and played full games at LT for the Pats (more or less successfully), and seems more adaptable than Waddle. Then, too, a lot of folks were certain that Dan Connolly would be a disaster filling in for Matt Light for an extended period and he wasn't at all.

OTOH, we have no idea how far along Croston may be in his development under Scar.

WRT new contracts for Fleming and Waddle, the numbers really depend on NFL market perceptions.

In spite of his relatively successful 9 starts at RT this season (including playoffs), I think the market may perceive Fleming (6047/325) as more of a "utility OL backup" with no set position, or maybe more OG than OT. Waddle, OTOH, seems more likely to be perceived as an actual RT. Waddle is slightly more prototypical size (6060/~320), and has 28 NFL starts at that one position.

Keep in mind that "the market" includes at least a couple of teams that lack an even adequate starter (much less a good backup) at one or more OL spots, and several teams with less than adequate backups at most OL spots, there's lately been some upward pressure on all OL compensation for experienced players. So, I'd guess that Fleming might have a market value somewhere around $3.0M APY as a pure generalist backup, whereas Waddle (in spite of his health/availability issue) may be more likely to be perceived as a quality OT backup and potential "bridge starter" for a couple of teams and, thus, could see offers in the $4.0M-$4.5M APY range.

OTOH, I could be way off.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that these contract numbers are justified by any pseudo-objective evaluation of the "talent" either Fleming or Waddle (or even Solder) bring to the table. I'm merely suggesting that this is how the NFL market may set their value - and the NFL market is NOT rational about player compensation. Full stop.

In fact, the NFL market is often loonier than than the proverbial two-peckered billy goat. On PCP. It's driven less by the principles of Supply & Demand, and more by a sick and twisted combination of quiet desperation, ego, and more money than brains. It's an amoral, tragic and denial-based three-way marriage of player "representatives", Peter Pan owners, and corporate media interests with more money than God that has been presided over by Satan himself.

So, arguing that such-and-such a player "is not worth that kind of money" is merely a vain attempt to impose rationality on a realm where the term itself has no real meaning. Continuing to try to do so will eventually leave one's forehead seriously dented and a large blood smear on the bricks.

@supafly
@Tony2046
 
I feel like you let Solder walk and resign Waddle and or Flemming for half the price.

Huh?

Solder is a very good LT, he will be re-signed for 2-3 years.
 
There are 3 issues when considering the signing of OT's in addition to Cannon and Croston.

1) We need a starting LT for 2018. [hopefully Solder]

2) We need veteran backup OT's for 2018 and 2019. Cannon and Solder (if he re-signs) are both injury prone. As was the case when we had Vollmer, we need to have backup(s) who can start at RT and LT, because they likely will in a significant number of games. Thankfully, we have two such OT's in Fleming and Waddle. [Waddle and/or Fleming]

3) We need starting OT's for the future. If Garcia works out, great. However, Garcia being the LT protect the franchise any time soon is unlikely. At very least, we need another top prospect.
===================
Solder, Cannon, Waddle/Fleming, Garcia or top draftee
 
First of all, I don't think Solder will "walk" in the sense of signing with another team if the Pats don't offer him enough. Solder's particular situation is far from being a typical UFA scenario. With his son's ongoing cancer condition, and the deep trust relationships that the Solder family has built with the medical people and facilities in Boston who are helping them deal with that (I'm speaking from personal experience on this), I'm 99% certain that Solder re-signs with the Pats or he retires and stays in Boston for the duration.

As an aside, Solder's last contract was 2 years, $20M, $19.9M guaranteed. Not that I think Solder even cares anymore about the contract status BS, but his $11.16M 2017 cap hit made him the 5th-highest-compensated LT in the league. I'd project his next contract with the Pats (if there is one), might be 2 years, $24M-$26M with around $22M guaranteed, and a 2018 cap hit of around $10M-$11M.

Anyway, IF the Pats are going to be without Solder for 2018 (and I really, really, don't want that to happen), I think I'd trust Fleming at LT a bit more than I would Waddle or Cannon (or any rookie). No, I'm not saying that Fleming would be even a "good" long term solution, but he has started and played full games at LT for the Pats (more or less successfully), and seems more adaptable than Waddle. Then, too, a lot of folks were certain that Dan Connolly would be a disaster filling in for Matt Light for an extended period and he wasn't at all.

OTOH, we have no idea how far along Croston may be in his development under Scar.

WRT new contracts for Fleming and Waddle, the numbers really depend on NFL market perceptions.

In spite of his relatively successful 9 starts at RT this season (including playoffs), I think the market may perceive Fleming (6047/325) as more of a "utility OL backup" with no set position, or maybe more OG than OT. Waddle, OTOH, seems more likely to be perceived as an actual RT. Waddle is slightly more prototypical size (6060/~320), and has 28 NFL starts at that one position.

Keep in mind that "the market" includes at least a couple of teams that lack an even adequate starter (much less a good backup) at one or more OL spots, and several teams with less than adequate backups at most OL spots, there's lately been some upward pressure on all OL compensation for experienced players. So, I'd guess that Fleming might have a market value somewhere around $3.0M APY as a pure generalist backup, whereas Waddle (in spite of his health/availability issue) may be more likely to be perceived as a quality OT backup and potential "bridge starter" for a couple of teams and, thus, could see offers in the $4.0M-$4.5M APY range.

OTOH, I could be way off.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that these contract numbers are justified by any pseudo-objective evaluation of the "talent" either Fleming or Waddle (or even Solder) bring to the table. I'm merely suggesting that this is how the NFL market may set their value - and the NFL market is NOT rational about player compensation. Full stop.

In fact, the NFL market is often loonier than than the proverbial two-peckered billy goat. On PCP. It's driven less by the principles of Supply & Demand, and more by a sick and twisted combination of quiet desperation, ego, and more money than brains. It's an amoral, tragic and denial-based three-way marriage of player "representatives", Peter Pan owners, and corporate media interests with more money than God that has been presided over by Satan himself.

So, arguing that such-and-such a player "is not worth that kind of money" is merely a vain attempt to impose rationality on a realm where the term itself has no real meaning. Continuing to try to do so will eventually leave one's forehead seriously dented and a large blood smear on the bricks.

@supafly
@Tony2046

At this point, only the coaches know where Garcia is in his rehab and what they think Croston's capabilities are. Whatever they do, or don't do with Waddle and Fleming, will speak volumes about their short term outlook for Garcia and Croston. I would love to have the flexibility of Fleming and Croston on the 53 again next year, but I am expecting the worst with Fleming... that one of the needy Tackle teams will price us out with starting RT money. He'd be crazy not to chase a chance at starting at this point in his career.
I'd be happy to bring Waddle back too at a price commensurate with the injury risk, but again fear we'll be priced out due to the market. Hopefully my skill estimating the FA market is as bad as it is on Wall Street.
 
I believe that you underestimate what a backup OT is worth to the patriots, given the injury history of Solder and Cannon.

For example, it is unlikely that Waddle is worth more to another team than he is worth to us. Cannon once got startup money as a backup.

I suppose only the coaches know whether Garcia has gained 50 pounds and is in NFL football shape. It could happen, but I very much doubt that the team would risk Brady to his LT play.

At this point, only the coaches know where Garcia is in his rehab and what they think Croston's capabilities are. Whatever they do, or don't do with Waddle and Fleming, will speak volumes about their short term outlook for Garcia and Croston. I would love to have the flexibility of Fleming and Croston on the 53 again next year, but I am expecting the worst with Fleming... that one of the needy Tackle teams will price us out with starting RT money. He'd be crazy not to chase a chance at starting at this point in his career.
I'd be happy to bring Waddle back too at a price commensurate with the injury risk, but again fear we'll be priced out due to the market. Hopefully my skill estimating the FA market is as bad as it is on Wall Street.
 
I believe that you underestimate what a backup OT is worth to the patriots, given the injury history of Solder and Cannon.

For example, it is unlikely that Waddle is worth more to another team than he is worth to us. Cannon once got startup money as a backup.

I suppose only the coaches know whether Garcia has gained 50 pounds and is in NFL football shape. It could happen, but I very much doubt that the team would risk Brady to his LT play.

Fair point on Garcia, but I think there was more to that Cannon extension than just paying a backup starter money. I think they saw the writing on the wall with Vollmer and paid what they did as short term insurance plus long term development as the starter to be.

I don't see Fleming's situation the same because he doesn't have the same ceiling Cannon does, nor the same path to starting that Cannon had. All of that said, I would be very interested in bringing him back if the money is reasonable. Anything in the neighborhood that Maineman cited is a no brainer to me. I just have a suspicion that it will be starter money elsewhere. And who knows, he might even choose to leave for opportunity over even money if the Pats match terms.

As for Waddle, I can't say for sure what value he'd have to other teams. But if there are other teams desperate for a week 1 starter, and what sounds like a weaker than normal draft class at the position, I doubt he'd have more value to the Pats as a backup then to them as a starter if they liked what they saw on his tape.

I'm not arguing against the players, they each served us well when they played this year. At 3-4m per year I'm all in. I'm just doubting that we can retain them at a price BB will deem worthy of the spend. As always, he'll have his number... and a plan B.

One thing is for sure... I'll sleep better if you are right and we see a Fleming extension soon.
 
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