<rant>When Exactly Did THAT Happen?</rant>

primetime said:

(Not to you, PatsFanInVA, but generally) I think Brady is better than Rodgers, and I find Aaron Rodgers incomparably annoying and weird, but I think the weird insecurity Patriots fans have in admitting Rodgers is an historically good, Hall of Famer level QB is similarly annoying.

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Historically good? What does that mean? Is he in the all-time top 20 QBs? Sure, I guess that makes him "historically good". But is he top 5? No way. Nobody who has only been to one SB in his career gets in the Top 5. The most important player on the team has to have an impact that gets to the point of showing in wins and losses, and those wins and losses have to be in the biggest games as well. Is he top 10? Could be, but I can't be arsed to put it together to see and I think these lists have a recency bias in almost every case regardless. Who among us saw Y.A. Tittle play or can parse the difference between Johnny Unitas and Peyton Manning given how different the era and athletes were?

And no, I don't have an insecurity about Rodgers. Why would I? He's never blocked our path to glory in any season. I just find it annoying that he's being discussed as being one of the greatest when we had years of this sort of thing with Peyton until people finally shut up. At least Peyton won a lot of football games and made it to the dance. And if I were facing a team with a minute left on their own 5 yard line, I know who I would be more worried about, and it ain't Aaron.

It is possible to believe:

1) Tob Brady is the Goat

and

2) Aaron Rodgers is the best right now (pre-injury).

I think people hear the second claim in the media, and think that the media is denying the first claim. Whether or not 2) is true is a separate issue.

SEA_Pat said:

And if I were facing a team with a minute left on their own 5 yard line, I know who I would be more worried about, and it ain't Aaron.

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Joe Flacco. I know!

TB_Helmet said:

Yeah I think 2011 put to rest the idea that a great QB can't win unless his defense is good. How Brady dragged that corpse to the Super Bowl, I'll never know, and we were one Welker catch away from winning it too. Put Rodgers on that team and there's no way they get past the Ravens.

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Lol Rodgers was on that team basically. 2011 Packers also had a trash defense. Rodgers meanwhile was blown out in the divisional round.

SEA_Pat said:

And no, I don't have an insecurity about Rodgers. Why would I? He's never blocked our path to glory in any season. I just find it annoying that he's being discussed as being one of the greatest when we had years of this sort of thing with Peyton until people finally shut up. At least Peyton won a lot of football games and made it to the dance. And if I were facing a team with a minute left on their own 5 yard line, I know who I would be more worried about, and it ain't Aaron.

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Does this reflect on Rodgers' skills, or the fact that he is in the NFC?

NE-VT said:

Does this reflect on Rodgers' skills, or the fact that he is in the NFC?

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It reflects how he's never managed to make it to the Big Show when we did. Contrast that with Eli Manning.

Now I similarly don't believe that Eli Manning is better than Rodgers as a QB, but he is in the NFC and he sure as hell blocked us from achieving glory. Furthermore, if it were one minute left in the game, I would similarly be more worried about Eli than Aaron, seeing as he's already done it to us twice in the biggest games. In many ways, Eli is the anti-Rodgers. He hasn't got the athleticism and skills of Rodgers, he hasn't got the regular season statistics but he plays far better in the big games than he does normally, and the bigger the game, the better he seems to play. That annoys the hell out of me too, by the way. Can't imagine how much it probably annoys Peyton.

NE-VT said:

It is possible to believe:

1) Tob Brady is the Goat

and

2) Aaron Rodgers is the best right now (pre-injury).

I think people hear the second claim in the media, and think that the media is denying the first claim. Whether or not 2) is true is a separate issue.

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I agree that it's a separate issue.

But what gives you the impression that Rodgers was better than Brady prior to the injury? We are not even one year removed from one of them throwing for a Super Bowl record number of yards and leading the greatest comeback in the history of the game. A game that Rodgers couldn't lead his team to because he got whupped by the same Falcons that Brady beat one game later. Did something happen in the first six games of the year that leads you to believe that either Brady has played worse than last year or that Rodgers has played better? Because as of SB51 in February 2017, Brady >>> Rodgers and you are saying that this has somehow changed in the six games since then.

GodBrady said:

Since the beginning of 2009, Aaron Rodgers has 281 TD, 61 INT, and a 105.8 passer rating to along with 21 rushing TD.

In that same time frame Brady has 272 TD, 68 INT, and a 100.9 passer rating and 12 rushing TD.

Is it really such a travesty to entertain the idea that Rodgers might be slightly better? (Personally, I would take Brady, but if I put him ahead of Rodgers he's ahead by a hair.)

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So basically excluding arguably Brady's best season(and starting off in a season Brady was recovering from ACL surgery) Rodgers is maybe a slightly better regular season QB.

Not exactly a very convincing argument. And those are in Rodgers-favoring metrics.

When it comes to wins and playoff success; Brady clearly kicks Rodgers ass from 2009+

NE-VT said:

It is possible to believe:

1) Tob Brady is the Goat

and

2) Aaron Rodgers is the best right now (pre-injury).

I think people hear the second claim in the media, and think that the media is denying the first claim. Whether or not 2) is true is a separate issue.

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Its not really possible to believe that.

For 2015-2017, Brady has higher QB rating, more yards/attempt, and fewer ints than Rodgers. And those are the things people usually user to claim Rodgers is better.

Brady also has more regular season wins (despite losing 4 games to suspension) and more playoff success.

SEA_Pat said:

I agree that it's a separate issue.

But what gives you the impression that Rodgers was better than Brady prior to the injury? We are not even one year removed from one of them throwing for a Super Bowl record number of yards and leading the greatest comeback in the history of the game. A game that Rodgers couldn't lead his team to because he got whupped by the same Falcons that Brady beat one game later. Did something happen in the first six games of the year that leads you to believe that either Brady has played worse than last year or that Rodgers has played better? Because as of SB51 in February 2017, Brady >>> Rodgers and you are saying that this has somehow changed in the six games since then.

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First of all, I never argued that Rodgers was better than Brady right now. I was simply pointing out that I thought people were conflating those two separate questions. I love our offense scheme and I want Brady to be running it. Perhaps you are asking me to weigh in on how anyone could think that pre-injury Rodgers was better?

The vast majority of mainstream sports media have rightfully conceded that Brady is the GOAT. When people say Rodgers is better they are attempting to claim that Rodgers is more skilled. I actually think this argument is a bit silly. Rodgers and Brady have very different strengths and succeed in very different offenses. I prefer Brady's style of QB play, but that does not mean it is ultimately better (or worse) in some abstract sense. Now of course Brady is more accomplished. He has more rings, and Eli has more than Peyton has more than Eli. Yet the claim that Peyton was the more skilled brother is easily defended.

I think you are aware of the relative strengths and weakness of Rodgers' and Brady's games. IMO, when someone says Rodgers is the best QB, they likely are referring to his arm strength from traditional throwing positions, improvise ability, scrambling skill, etc.

NE-VT said:

First of all, I never argued that Rodgers was better than Brady right now. I was simply pointing out that I thought people were conflating those two separate questions. I love our offense scheme and I want Brady to be running it. Perhaps you are asking me to weigh in on how anyone could think that pre-injury Rodgers was better?

The vast majority of mainstream sports media have rightfully conceded that Brady is the GOAT. When people say Rodgers is better they are attempting to claim that Rodgers is more skilled. I actually think this argument is a bit silly. Rodgers and Brady have very different strengths and succeed in very different offenses. I prefer Brady's style of QB play, but that does not mean it is ultimately better (or worse) in some abstract sense. Now of course Brady is more accomplished. He has more rings, and Eli has more than Peyton has more than Eli. Yet the claim that Peyton was the more skilled brother is easily defended.

I think you are aware of the relative strengths and weakness of Rodgers' and Brady's games. IMO, when someone says Rodgers is the best QB, they likely are referring to his arm strength from traditional throwing positions, improvise ability, scrambling skill, etc.

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I don't care much for style points, and I think you'd find that this is often the basis for many of the contentious debates on the GDT and elsewhere - the more negative posters not only want victory, they want it by a large margin with no bad plays or they seem dissatisfied and whine piteously. The more realistic posters understand that the other guys get paid too and winning consistently in the NFL is among the more difficult things in sports.

I would also agree that those who extol Rodgers are doing it based on the more flashy aspects with respect to QB skills. Rodgers is clearly better at running and throwing on the run. He throws are beautiful to watch and he has an amazing ability to flick the ball and make it go where he wants at great velocity. His Hail Marys appear to have some magical aspect that enables his receivers to get to them while the defenders packed around them flail in vain.

What is missing is that Brady is better at the most important QB skills - defense recognition, playcall and line adjustment and putting the ball in the hands of the right guy in the right position at the right time. He's also more durable, which is a skill and quite a critical one as it negates all other skills when you're standing on the sidelines for whatever reason. It also reflects an aspect of their styles - Brady remains in the pocket and his slight movements give him the time and space to get his passes off. Rodgers moves a lot and scrambles, and that gives him the time and space to get his passes off. Seems QBs get injured more when scrambling as there's higher kinetic energies involved. So that's part of the calculus.

As to which style is "better", I believe there IS a direct measure, and that is wins. The vast majority of Super Bowls have been won by pocket passers, and this continues even as more and more mobile QBs have entered the league. Every time we see mobile QBs, they gain early success, then people figure out how to defend them (keep them in contain in the pocket) then they either fail because they can't adjust or they continue to be mobile and get injured on a big hit.

Sicilian said:

Brady is only the GOAT when people want to disparage Belichick's contributions as a coach.

Belichick is only a great coach when people want to say Rodgers would be better than Brady if he had the same coach.

Sucks, but that's how it works in today's sports media.

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Ian we need a way to like, agree,funny, and winner a post. ...

I love how Brady is only good because he had Belichick and Belichick was only good because he had Brady, so obviously both sucked.

SEA_Pat said:

Historically good? What does that mean? Is he in the all-time top 20 QBs? Sure, I guess that makes him "historically good". But is he top 5? No way. Nobody who has only been to one SB in his career gets in the Top 5. The most important player on the team has to have an impact that gets to the point of showing in wins and losses, and those wins and losses have to be in the biggest games as well. Is he top 10? Could be, but I can't be arsed to put it together to see and I think these lists have a recency bias in almost every case regardless. Who among us saw Y.A. Tittle play or can parse the difference between Johnny Unitas and Peyton Manning given how different the era and athletes were?

And no, I don't have an insecurity about Rodgers. Why would I? He's never blocked our path to glory in any season. I just find it annoying that he's being discussed as being one of the greatest when we had years of this sort of thing with Peyton until people finally shut up. At least Peyton won a lot of football games and made it to the dance. And if I were facing a team with a minute left on their own 5 yard line, I know who I would be more worried about, and it ain't Aaron.

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You've written probably 10,000 words in this thread to disparage Rodgers while begrudging that he's probably top-10 all-time so, yeah, I'd say you have a complex.

SEA_Pat said:

What is missing is that Brady is better at the most important QB skills - defense recognition, playcall and line adjustment and putting the ball in the hands of the right guy in the right position at the right time. He's also more durable, which is a skill and quite a critical one as it negates all other skills when you're standing on the sidelines for whatever reason. It also reflects an aspect of their styles - Brady remains in the pocket and his slight movements give him the time and space to get his passes off. Rodgers moves a lot and scrambles, and that gives him the time and space to get his passes off

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First, I completely agree. I greatly prefer Brady's style. I was trying to illustrate what someone is referring when they say Rodgers is better.

SEA_Pat said:

. The vast majority of Super Bowls have been won by pocket passers, and this continues even as more and more mobile QBs have entered the league.

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I think everyone wants a QB capable of being a pocket passer. Some QB's can be a pocket passer and yet also possess scrambling skills. Rodgers might fit in the category.

SEA_Pat said:

As to which style is "better", I believe there IS a direct measure, and that is wins.

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The problem is wins are a team stat. The offense system that Rodgers operates in is anemic. Here is Micheal Lombardi's take on the topic (I cut out the majority of the HOT TAKE garbage from the other 2):



We will never know how Rodgers would functioned in our more innovative ehernt-perkins spread system. Perhaps Mike Mccarthy is maximizing Rodgers potential already, or perhaps Rodgers if he spent his career under Bill O'brien or in New England.

This is not to take anything away from Brady of course. He mastered the system. He helped perfect it. It is a part of and an extension of his greatness. The "system QB" knock is bs, because it is the QB's job to run the system. But you can still question if Rodgers is given the same tools.

Five Lombardi's in 7 tries!

Can anybody else claim this?

No problem being a homer here...................

GodBrady said:

Let's look at this on a more macro level. In four of those losses, Green Bay's defense allowed:
51 points
44 points
41 points
37 points

Did you know that in Brady's entire 34-game playoff career, the defense has allowed 37 or more points one time (to the Colts, in 2006)? In fact, in Brady's playoff career, the Patriots have allowed only 30 points 3 times:

2006, Colts (loss, 34-38)
2009, Ravens (loss, 14-33)
2014, Ravens (win, 35-31)

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Call me a homer but I believe this is an extra pro in Brady's column.......

TB12's game management is much more effective in playing complimentary football. The dink and dunk football keeps the offense on the field and is superbly marshalled by TB12 meaning the defense isn't as exposed and fatigued as Aaron Rodgers style of quarterbacking.

The vertical offense he employs with heaves to Jennings, Nelson etc mean the defense don't get the same breaks that the patriots defense do.

The patriots have had some absolutely awful defenses and the fact they haven't conceded points in the same way as GB is partly down to smart complimentary football by TB12

primetime said:

You've written probably 10,000 words in this thread to disparage Rodgers while begrudging that he's probably top-10 all-time so, yeah, I'd say you have a complex.

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Actually, I'm simply answering the posts of people like yourself who are issuing contrary points. Why? Because I find it interesting and because I believe strongly that Rodgers doesn't belong in the same sentence as Brady in terms of their respective records. To say someone is in the top 10 all-time is the sort of disparagement that I hope I receive! Most importantly, I have some serious procrastination issues and this is the shiniest bauble I can focus on to avoid the work I desperately need to complete.

So is there anything of substance that I've raised that you believe is not factual or has been shaded in such a way as to be untrue? That would be the sort of thing someone with a complex would do.

Wins > stats (actually, they tell you different things; the full picture incorporates both)

Wins on big stages tell u something else.

Now, why talk wins? It’s not really fair. What if you have the 85 bears defense and Walter Payton? Were they good because of the headband guy?

No. But lots of Pats teams have been good with only B.B. and Brady in common.

So what I’m saying is that you can have athleticism and escapability. I’ll take inspiration and comebackability every day of the week and twice on Sunday. 10x on Super Sunday.

To be prosaic: what’s the stat for leadership? Seriously - can you measure how a team responds to the QB, and even if he’s “putting them on his back,” they feed off him and start making plays?

I guess you can look at the significant receivers and how they fared when they left, but that’s a pretty small indication - in fact that’s really a hint for measuring passing, controlling for receiver quality. The question is, do we have a stat anything like wins and big wins to measure QB as force multiplier?

To the point that Rodgers can be the best “right now,” you’re right, he can, but he’s not (see above).

He also needs a ring or 2 more to really be in the “historically great” conversation. Elway just wasn’t, despite some big numbers. It was always woulda shoulda coulda - then Terrell Davis dragged him over the line to win the big one.

Where’s the Rodgers who says “I don’t care who’s on this team, we have a shot”.., then makes it happen?

Sorry, A.R. is great. Drew Brees is great. The other insurance salesman is great. I mean, great to watch, great stats, and in the Brady ballpark more than the other “competition.”

But when the dust settled in the 80s-90s era, it was Montana then everybody else. Not Elway, not Marino.

It’s like that but more.

SEA_Pat said:

So what exactly has he done to remove the GOAT from that pedestal?

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As an unbiased fan who doesn't care, I think it comes down to aesthetics. Rodgers is exciting to watch flail around all over the field with heroic effort. Brady is just cool and methodical. While I'm sure what he is doing is difficult for him, me makes it look easy. AR, on the other hand, makes it look like he's in a 15 round heavy weight fight.

When they say "best" they really mean "most exciting."

DaveEG said:

As an unbiased fan who doesn't care, I think it comes down to aesthetics. Rodgers is exciting to watch flail around all over the field with heroic effort. Brady is just cool and methodical. While I'm sure what he is doing is difficult for him, me makes it look easy. AR, on the other hand, makes it look like he's in a 15 round heavy weight fight.

When they say "best" they really mean "most exciting."

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That, and I think, stats.

bbobbo said:

technically, your rant is still continuing because you didn't close that tag correctly. (</rant>)


.

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Okay, closed it. Phew, that was a long rant. I feel better now.