The ASJ Fumble

Tuck · Oct 16, 2017

SacPete1 said:
So there are 2 terms here that require distinction; Control and Possession.

Control is having the ball in your hands securely.
Possession is qualified by having established control and having 2 feet, a knee or body in bounds.

Possession is the key

If you are deemed to have possession just before hitting the ground you cannot lose control of the ball as you hit the ground. Movement of the ball after you have established possession does not necessarily constitute loss of possession (Para 3 Rule3 section 2).

Riveron's quote today from PFT "“By rule, he has to re-establish possession. He must regain control of the football again before he hits out of bounds,” Riveron said. “He has not regained control of the football before he hits out of bounds.”

He seems to use possession and control without distinction. I believe his last sentence should be possession and not control.

ASJ has to regain possession before he goes out of bounds.

I would argue that he didn't even have control because there was no replay angle showing him gain control after the fumble until he was in the end zone.

Deus Irae · Oct 16, 2017

bormio said:
We might think it was hard to fathom, but NFL referees (for the most part) really do know the rules. Corrente knew exactly what to look for - there was a checklist in his mind. The criteria to rule a TD after the loss of possession were not met - so no TD. He said it was obvious. How Twitter feels about it doesn't really matter.

Both previous heads of officiating say that the overturn was wrong.

Clonamery · Oct 16, 2017

Deus Irae said:
Both previous heads of officiating say that the overturn was wrong.

LOL!

yukon cornelius · Oct 16, 2017

Deus Irae said:
Both previous heads of officiating say that the overturn was wrong.

and both of them depend on hits & retweets for income, no?

disagreeing with the ruling and jumping on the 'controversy' bandwagon helps the hit count for sure......

Joker · Oct 16, 2017

it all goes to prove once again..BRADY DID IT!! Suspend Brady!!!

Ring 6 · Oct 16, 2017

brdmaverick said:
Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but even if enforced correctly yesterday it's weird rule. If the offense loses the ball and it rules 15 yards downfield and out of bounds at the 1 yard line you are ok, but one yard further and you lose possession of the ball?

I think a case could be made that if the ball goes out of bounds (even if through the end zone) it goes back to where the fumbling player lost the ball.

I feel like this discussion came up last year as a result of Jim Harbaugh complaining.

I think the issue is you have to have one rule for all cases, so the best rule is not always what best fits each instance.
The end zone is treated differently than the rest of the field in many ways.
Essentially this rule is doing that, just as with a punt.
I know its a bit silly but you could extend your argument to say its unfair if on the last play of the game a guy gets tackled one inch short of the goalline instead of 1 inch past it.

I'm just not big on changing rules, and the NFL, IMO has made poor changes based on knee jerk reactions.

QuantumMechanic · Oct 16, 2017

doesntmatter1 said:
This was garbage plain and simple. Imo a fumble didn't occur since the ball never transfered between players or hit the ground.

You're wrong. There's no requirement a fumble needs to hit the ground or transfer between players.

In fact, RG3 once lost a TD very similarly to this. Diving for the EZ he lost the ball in mid-air, re-gripped it in mid-air, crossed the plane holding the ball, and landed OOB. Refs denied the TD and called a touchback for the same reason -- it was ruled a fumble and re-possessing a fumble follows the same rules as catching a pass. And in this case RG3 had to establish himself in-bounds with the ball, which he did not do.

QuantumMechanic · Oct 16, 2017

upstater1 said:
One good reason for this rule is that they want to prevent offensive teams from purposely fumbling forward on desperation plays.

That's not a good reason for the asinine change-of-possession rule because there already are rules against purposely fumbling forward on desperation plays.

On all 4th down plays and all plays in the last two minutes of a half, a fumble can only be advanced by the fumbling player. If offensive player A fumbles it and it goes forward and is recovered by offensive player B, the ball goes back to the spot where A fumbled it. Only if A recovers it himself will the ball be marked at the spot of the recovery. (This is the anti-Holy Roller rule.)

rochrist · Oct 16, 2017

Pats1989 said:
Denver, KC, Seattle.

Denver that just got rolled by the previously 0-5 Giants?

bbobbo · Oct 16, 2017

QuantumMechanic said:
You're wrong. There's no requirement a fumble needs to hit the ground or transfer between players.

In fact, RG3 once lost a TD very similarly to this. Diving for the EZ he lost the ball in mid-air, re-gripped it in mid-air, crossed the plane holding the ball, and landed OOB. Refs denied the TD and called a touchback for the same reason -- it was ruled a fumble and re-possessing a fumble follows the same rules as catching a pass. And in this case RG3 had to establish himself in-bounds with the ball, which he did not do.

interesting, it's pretty much the exact same play, except his loss of control was more obvious:

Fair or foul: Did refs make right call in overturning RGIII's TD run?

what's more, dean blandino and mike pereira agreed with the call at the time.
.

QuantumMechanic · Oct 16, 2017

In other forum someone points out that the change-of-possession rule here has been around forever and posits that it's a holdover from rugby. In rubgy (according to that person) whenever the offensive team provides the impetus that takes the ball out of bounds, possession is lost. He guesses that gridiron football started with that rule and they eventually changed it so that the ball going OOB in the field of play doesn't cause a loss of possession, but forgot/never got around to changing it for the defensive EZ.

goheels22002 · Oct 16, 2017

The overturn was a terrible call. The guy had the ball as he crashed through the pylon and the ball had broken the plane.

The beauty of the call was seeing 60,000 butt-hurt Jets fans booing in their stupid airplane and fireman hats.

The Jets getting jobbed did make the Chris Jones pushing the defensive linemen from the back call a few years ago easier to swallow.

Whatever. The Jets suck and they lost.

goheels22002 · Oct 16, 2017

yukon cornelius said:
"regaining control" doesn't re-establish possession per NFL rules, though....in this instance he must maintain control as he goes to the ground, and he clearly does not.....therefore possession was not re-established until he is OOB

"regaining control" does not apply to the Jets nor their fans. In the "I Hate Roger Goodell Handbook" it clearly states that anything that causes the Jets and their fans lose their minds all at once is good for the "integrity of the game."

drewskie · Oct 16, 2017

goheels22002 said:
The overturn was a terrible call. The guy had the ball as he crashed through the pylon and the ball had broken the plane.

The beauty of the call was seeing 60,000 butt-hurt Jets fans booing in their stupid airplane and fireman hats.

The Jets getting jobbed did make the Chris Jones pushing the defensive linemen from the back call a few years ago easier to swallow.

Whatever. The Jets suck and they lost.

The Jet didnt get jobbed; the correct overturn was made. And ASJ didnt have the ball as he broke the plane. That's the textbook definition of a fumble.

archstanton543 · Oct 16, 2017

goheels22002 said:
The overturn was a terrible call. The guy had the ball as he crashed through the pylon and the ball had broken the plane.

That doesn't matter. Once the ball is fumbled (he fumbled before hitting the pylon) the player needs to regain possession all the way to the ground and land inbounds. He did neither. Again, the pylon is irrelevant once the fumble occurs.

Palm Beach Pats Fan · Oct 16, 2017

I hate to bring up a bad memory, but it is a little similar to famous 4th and 2 play

In that case, Kevin Faulk caught the ball past the sticks, but bobbled it in midair, just a little. The defender was pushing him backward toward the LOS. Because of the bobble, the ref did not give him full forward progress, only progress to the point where he later re-secured the ball and got two feet down. That was (in the ref's opinion) just short of the line to gain. Kevin did not fumble, but he lost control and that affected the spot, to our chagrin.

Here the player caught the ball, lost control of it before crossing the goal line, and then needed to re-gain control in the end zone with two feet or a knee down for it to be a touchdown. Also in this instance the recovery was taking him to the turf, so he needed to maintain control as he landed. In this case you do have to call it a fumble, since he lost control and NOBODY gained control in-bounds. It has to be treated like the famous Leon Lett fumble out of the end zone in the SB vs. (I think) Buffalo where he was caught from behind at the 1 and fumbled out of the end zone.

goheels22002 · Oct 16, 2017

Three posters disliked my post above #313. I'm not sure what they disagreed with, but I am going to assume they disagreed with the conclusion which is "The Jets suck and they lost." I don't think there is any evidence that the Jets don't suck (well, at least I haven't seen any.) And there's no question the Jets lost.

bresna · Oct 16, 2017

brdmaverick said:
Alright, so this is slight digression but relevant in that it relates to control and possession of a fumble.............

Does anyone remember the 2009/10 playoff games against the Ravens when the Pats got credited with a questionable muffed punt recovery...........

fwd to the 37:10 mark of this video..........

I think we can all agree that the Pats player loses the ball on his way to the ground and never should have been credited with possession. Shockingly the Ravens didn't challenge.

Ugh... did you really have to make me watch a part of that game again?

archstanton543 · Oct 16, 2017

goheels22002 said:
Three posters disliked my post above #313. I'm not sure what they disagreed with, but I am going to assume they disagreed with the conclusion which is "The Jets suck and they lost." I don't think there is any evidence that the Jets don't suck (well, at least I haven't seen any.) And there's no question the Jets lost.

I'll explain exactly why I disliked your post. The first two sentences is factually incorrect.

SHOWTIME15 · Oct 16, 2017

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:
I hate to bring up a bad memory, but it is a little similar to famous 4th and 2 play

In that case, Kevin Faulk caught the ball past the sticks, but bobbled it in midair, just a little. The defender was pushing him backward toward the LOS. Because of the bobble, the ref did not give him full forward progress, only progress to the point where he later re-secured the ball and got two feet down. That was (in the ref's opinion) just short of the line to gain. Kevin did not fumble, but he lost control and that affected the spot, to our chagrin.

Here the player caught the ball, lost control of it before crossing the goal line, and then needed to re-gain control in the end zone with two feet or a knee down for it to be a touchdown. Also in this instance the recovery was taking him to the turf, so he needed to maintain control as he landed. In this case you do have to call it a fumble, since he lost control and NOBODY gained control in-bounds. It has to be treated like the famous Leon Lett fumble out of the end zone in the SB vs. (I think) Buffalo where he was caught from behind at the 1 and fumbled out of the end zone.

well said

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