OT NBA Draft Lottery

Watch Ainge keep the pick but draft Josh Jackson or some s.hit.

Which would still be less stupid than trading the pick for Butler.

primetime said:

People were accusing LeBron of this years ago. Stars matter but it's a team game, and the West remains magnitudes better than the East.

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Oh yeah things can change, Lebron wasn't an alpha until he was. Sometimes stars progress and sometimes they dont

Bartmac36 said:

Im not doubting Fultz as a surpreme basketball talent, i'm just always hesitant when theres a lack of winning pedigree with a player. It's the same reason I wanted nothing to do with Kevin Love during all the years people were hoping we would trade for him.

There have been lots of talented players in college and in the NBA that have all the tools to be great, but for some reason dont produce results. There is elite alpha talent (Lebron, Kawhi, Westbrook, IT) and elite beta talent (Harden, Irving, AD, Cousins). My biggest fear with Fultz is he's the latter, whereas I think Ball could possible be an alpha but his off court distractions are potentially too much

Theres no way of knowing for sure until these guys get 3-5 years in to their NBA careers and thats what makes it a fascinating decision coming up.

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Kevin McHale was 11-16 his junior year at Minnesota, Not freshman. Charles Barkley was 14-14 at Auburn his frosh year. Remember electric PG Kevin Johnson - Phoenix? Played at Cal and was 12-16 his frosh year and 13-15 his soph year. Larry Bird quit at Indiana his freshman year.

primetime said:

Oh, I thought you were referring to the trade that brought Wallace to the Nets, rather than Wallace going to the Celtics with Humphries, some cap dumps, and the picks for KG, Pierce, and Terry. Yeah, it was way too much to give up and everyone knew it at the time. Then again, there was a feeling that the Nets would stick around as a 4-6 seed in the East for longer than they did so maybe the draft picks would be in the 20s rather than high lottery, and the pick swap may not have made a difference. I mean, that was the optimist of optimist's view. The rest of us thought it was utterly nuts.

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Both, I still don't understand why Deron wanted that. I really like Crash when he was good but...that was nuts. I doubt they take Lilliard but ****. They should have been given assets to take on Joe Johnson's (who is a legit good player, but that money was nuts) inflated contract not giving anything up...

What happened to Deron anyways? Why did he fall apart so quickly? He was fun to watch back when he was still good. Been a solid piece for Cleveland.

Bartmac36 said:

trade the pick! The baggage with Ball is too much and Fultz won like 9 total games against garbage teams last year which i think is an extremely underrated red flag. Not to mention all we do is draft guards and we need to get bigger

I say trade for a legit rim protector, sign hayward and try to keep bradley, call it an offseason

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He was also in a conference with Oregon, UCLA, Arizona, Utah and a very young and talented USC team.
I say keep Fultz. All of our back court (IT4, Bradley and Smart) are UFA's next year & we can't sign them all.

Bartmac36 said:

Oh yeah things can change, Lebron wasn't an alpha until he was. Sometimes stars progress and sometimes they dont

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Certainly helped that he had Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh instead of Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Delonte West as his supporting cast when he made that 'progression.'

primetime said:

Certainly helped that he had Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh instead of Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Delonte West as his supporting cast when he made that 'progression.'

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I dont think that was when he became an alpha, i think it was when he went back to Cleveland and had one of the greatest finals performances of all time despite no Kyrie or Love. And then the following year when he dethroned the mighty 73-9 warriors on the road in another historic finals performance as the underdogs. And of course his insane performance in these playoffs as well

Bartmac36 said:

You seem to know a lot more about Fultz than me as I admittedly have very little interest in college basketball, and I usually go by gut when researching prospects come draft time, as I do with football as well. For the sake of the Celtics frachise I hope you are right that Fultz is a no brainer should they pick him. Like I said I dont doubt his natural basketball talent one bit, I just hope that a guy that didnt win in college can then become a consumant winner in the pros after the current talent that will be supporting him early (IT, Horford, possible FA signing) is gone and the franchise is left in his hands.

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Here's an interesting piece about Fultz, comparing him & last year's #1 pick - Simmons. Written in March, before the tournament and draft hype.

College Basketball’s Best Player Can’t Get Any Love

Froob said:

Both, I still don't understand why Deron wanted that. I really like Crash when he was good but...that was nuts. I doubt they take Lilliard but ****. They should have been given assets to take on Joe Johnson's (who is a legit good player, but that money was nuts) inflated contract not giving anything up...

What happened to Deron anyways? Why did he fall apart so quickly? He was fun to watch back when he was still good. Been a solid piece for Cleveland.

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Deron was, at least in New Jersey and Brooklyn, an unlikable egomaniac by all accounts (most notably Pierce and Johnson). Who knows why he wanted Crash so badly. He had a bunch of injury problems that began his second year with the Nets, including a nagging wrist injury that affected his shooting. He was the alternative to getting Carmelo Anthony, which had been the rumor for a long time, and I was more excited to get him than I would have been for Melo. I thought he was the best point guard in the league in the 2008 and 2009 seasons, but man did his reign in Brooklyn end ignominiously.

The Johnson trade was fine at the time and in retrospect a clear win for the Nets. The Nets gave up a bunch of trash (Jordan Farmar, Johan Petro, DeShawn Stevenson, Jordan Williams, and Anthony Morrow), a 1st rounder in 2013, and a 2nd rounder this year. The 1st rounder was the only thing of value they gave up, and it was in the 20s in a weak draft and turned into Shane Larkin who, ironically, ended up in Brooklyn last season. He sucked. The Nets pulled the Johnson trade off when they expected to be getting Dwight Howard more or less the next day, too.

TommyBrady12 said:

Who does fultz compare to?

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I've said it a few times, but I will say it again (unless someone wants to disagree with me -- I am a huge NBA and college hoops fan, but certainly no expert): James Harden or pre-injury Brandon Roy.

SalemPats said:

I think it's personal preference. Would you rather have Jason Kidd or Russell Westbrook. I take Kidd

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I'd rather have the guy who will actually be able to shoot without having his shot put back in his face.

realtime said:

I've said it a few times, but I will say it again (unless someone wants to disagree with me -- I am a huge NBA and college hoops fan, but certainly no expert): James Harden or pre-injury Brandon Roy.

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What do you make of the Fultz / Westbrook comparison? Better shooter, less athletic (obviously)?

Bartmac36 said:

Its not about the natural talents as ive tried to explain in other posts, its about the thing in your heart, that dog in your mind that drives you to succeed past even the longest odds. IT has that dog in him, Harden and guys like lowry dont. Thats what i meant, i guess it wasnt as clear as it seemed in my head

The celtics do not have an overly talented roster, hes at an incredible disadvantage size wise, and despite everything IT has dealt with in this last month he's still carried this team to a top seed and the ECF. Thats as alpha as it gets IMO

Meanwhile you have guys lke John Wall that are more gifted and talented physically going 0-11 down the stretch of a do or die game or James Harden just completely unravelling altogether at home against a super short handed team and getting blown out, that aint alpha

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That's great and all, and possibly even true. I dispute, however, that you can possibly read the mind of an 18 year kid and come to a definitive conclusion about it. He hasn't been tested enough to prove it one way or the other. His one year in a ****ty program run by a ****ty staff prove nothing other than he can excel under trying circumstances.

reflexblue said:

Another guard? It seems with the exception of last year Ainge has picked guards almost exclusively. This team needs a power forward from what ive seen. Trade the overall number one for a young big man like butler.

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You consider Butler to be both young and a big? Curious.

rochrist said:

That's great and all, and possibly even true. I dispute, however, that you can possibly read the mind of an 18 year kid and come to a definitive conclusion about it. He hasn't been tested enough to prove it one way or the other. His one year in a ****ty program run by a ****ty staff prove nothing other than he can excel under trying circumstances.

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wait who are you disputing that with? Because i never once definitively stated that Markelle Fultz doesnt have the alpha dog in him.

The most i said was that his lack of winning in college was a concern to me, and i dont think thats a totally unreasonable thing to say. I also said that i think he has tons of talent and that we wont know for sure for another 3-5 years.

I actually agree with you in that we wont have proof based on what we've seen so far. Im just saying we've seen talented players succeed on bad teams and have stand out seasons individually which make people think they are greater than in reality, and the example i cited was Kevin Love on the Twolves. That would be my only concern and i fully admit its a limited sample size and theres no way to know for sure.

reflexblue said:

Another guard? It seems with the exception of last year Ainge has picked guards almost exclusively. This team needs a power forward from what ive seen. Trade the overall number one for a young big man like butler.

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this is kind of how i feel as well. I dont know how they would do it because i dont necessarily think he's worth the top overall pick, but id love to see them go after andre drummond and move horford to power forward.

We need an elite rim protector and more size on this team, and drummond would provide both. I just dont know how you aquire him without using the top pick and/or multiple other valuable assets, unless you can get something else in return as well

ForThoseAboutToRock said:

What do you make of the Fultz / Westbrook comparison? Better shooter, less athletic (obviously)?

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Westbrook is not a bad comparison, although the guys I mentioned (and even John Wall, albeit with a much better jump shot) seem like better comparisons to me. Using Westbrook as the comparison, I would say that Fultz is like Westbrook in that he is a relatively late bloomer and has some size and skill similarities. Also, as you said, Westbrook is definitely the more explosive athlete (although Fultz is certainly no slouch athletically) and Fultz is the better shooter.

Another difference between the two is that, although both were fairly late bloomers as I mentioned, Fultz blossomed much sooner than Westbrook. Fultz was already a star by the time he arrived on Washington campus, whereas Westbrook was still very much a projection even after two full seasons at UCLA. So, from that perspective, Fultz is on a much faster trajectory than Westbrook.

reflexblue said:

Another guard? It seems with the exception of last year Ainge has picked guards almost exclusively. This team needs a power forward from what ive seen. Trade the overall number one for a young big man like butler.

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Butler is in his late twenties. I wouldn't give up the #1 overall for him.

Yeah I hate drafting all these short skilled guys every year - look how much trouble WSH gave us with their length. That said I don't know how the talent looks this year, but I wish we'd get bigger too, if possible.

But this kid Fultz looks good! I like the wingspan.

Bartmac36 said:

this is kind of how i feel as well. I dont know how they would do it because i dont necessarily think he's worth the top overall pick, but id love to see them go after andre drummond and move horford to power forward.

We need an elite rim protector and more size on this team, and drummond would provide both. I just dont know how you aquire him without using the top pick and/or multiple other valuable assets, unless you can get something else in return as well

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Andre '30 percent FT shooter' Drummond? Thanks but no thanks.