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Brady needs to prove himself <rolls eyes skyward>

You're probably the only one that took it that way. I would not say Brady needs to prove himself in general. You does need to instill confidence in Bill he will not drop off next year or the year after though by having another good year and not show signs of slowing down particularly near the end.

If you consider that having to prove himself... then yes he does.
 
Oh my gosh. Can people please STOP being offended if a poster on this board points out flaws potentially on the team and that this team is not perfect. Also lets remember BB makes mistakes like any one else. Yes the Pats have been the best team clearly of the past 15 years and no one is close but can we not act like the other teams don't belong in the NFL too?

If we can not be honestly critical about this team and concerns we see on it we can not be honestly high on it either.

I think Ken was right about everything he said pretty much. Yes he is right the Pats will line up against players with the same physical ability. They have guys who run 4.40s too you know. All these teams have outstanding athletes that are world class.

Also it is a hard spot to be in when everything but a super bowl appearance (maybe win) is considered a choke. The bar is set crazy high. People will shrug if they win and if they lose people will blame them and not give the other team credit likely.

It is true our DL does have questions. The IOL needs to have players step up this year and it is not sure they will. The schedule is harder and the fact JG is here means the Pats very likely lost the chance to maximize his value if they do move on from him which is not a sure thing. That could be writing on the wall for Brady. Anyone who thinks it is impossible has not been paying attention to how Bill does business.

I think Brady realizes what JG being here means for him and that he will be under a microscope this year. More so than ever before and it will be BB who is looking very very closely. Hopefully it makes him played pissed off as that is when he is his best (that or down points in the super bowl).

Also I 100% agree no way the Pats carry both Brady and JG in 2018. We need to stop talking about it like it could happen. JG wants to play. He will either start here or elsewhere in 2018. Anything less and we need to franchise him and keep Brady under the current contract. That will not happen going into the season.

Also while i agree this team has concerns i still think they go 19-0 (like mt prediction thread says) but this team like every team has its issues and questions.
 
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I expect our secondary to be a huge strenght. I think people really are sleeping on gilmore. Yes he had some bad games last season against the jests and that blown coverage against us but the guy played well the second half of the season. Rowe will just get better. My only concern's linebacker because of the depth.
 
Congrats on 10K Ken! Many many more. Great toilet reading (take that as a sincere compliment!)



Gotta throw the flag on this one. The "talent" gap may not be big, but the coaching gap certainly is. It goes back to a discussion some of us were having before the Ravens game last season. It's like when some team play the Patriots, they **** themselves because of the aura, perceived or not, that the Patriots are unbeatable. Of course we know they aren't. But coaches coach as if they believe it. You mention the SB in the first half, but arguments can be made that Shanahan and Quinn made decisions that ultimately cost them the game. The Patriots made the plays, of course, but if these guys kept doing what they were doing, we are having a different outcome and thus, different conversations.

You cannot discount the affect and effect coaching has on players everyone thinks is talented. Look no further than the AFC North and the Steelers and Bengals. From Antonio Brown and his Facebook antics to the Bengals and their messes from players to head coach (LEWIS IS STILL THERE!). As long as NFL coaches continue to act this way and not realize the Patriots are mopping the floor with all of them, they can have all the on-field talent in the world if they want to.... they'll lose before they step onto the field.
Your post got me thinking about 2 facts that seem to contradict themselves. One is the fact that ALL these coaches have an amazing amount of football knowledge. I concider myself a knowledgeable football FAN, who knows more football than most, but I know I know about 5% of what a full time professional coach knows. So it is very hard for me to call an NFL coach stupid or inept, because I KNOW just how much more info he has than me. Guys who coach in the NFL have reached the top of their profession. They are all smart, motivated, hard working, organized and driven people who have worked their way up a hard ladder that take years and sometimes decades to acheive.

On the other hand, you have the undeniable fact that in most games that Pats play they have a better game plan on both sides of the ball than their opponents. So how is this happening. It can't be that Bill just knows that much more football than his peers. I think that is just too easy an answer, and quite frankly probably isn't true.

So it got me thinking about just why this keeps happening, and I've come up with a reason (just one of many), that probably deserves its own thread titled, "Why the Pats keep winning". But for now I offer this tidbit for discussion.

The first thing that occurred to me was what a huge advantage it is to be able to structure completely different offensive and defensive game plans based on who you are playing each and every week. PLUS have the ability to make adjustments so seamlessly and so fast. That advantage alone can account for why the Pats win so consistently. They always maximize matchup advantages. They counter what good things opposing teams are doing to them. They manage the game probable better than their opponent.

In a game where the margin of victory is as small as it is in the NFL, going into a game with that kind of advantage each week can be that slight edge that make the difference between winning and losing,

So why doesn't EVERY team do it that way. The reason is that they can't. It's just too hard to coach a different game plan each week. Unless it is ingrained into your system over years of development, it would create more mental mistakes than it would create matchup advantages.

Football players as well as coaches are creatures of habit. They thrive doing the same thing every week. The biggest enemy of good play is THINKING. Players play their best and fastest when they are just reacting without thought to something that they've seen over an over again. Asking them to be able to absorb a different game plan every week could create the over thinking that slows down their reaction time.

I believe it has taken years for BB to develop the language to teach his system. Develop how to teach his coaches to be able to teach this system, and finally and most importantly, identify the players who will be able to absorb this kind of system. Like we always say, it isn't for everyone.

The continuity it takes to create this kind of "system" is very rare in the NFL, where the lifespan of most HC's is about 5 years. So many moving parts have to come together in order for it to be effective. It is NOT something a new HC could come in and do in his first year.

Understandably this topic is stuff that books should be written about and MBA programs across the country should be studying for managment and communication lessons. And you know me, I'd LOVE to go on.....and on, ;)
But unfortunately (or fortunately for some) responsibilities require me to stop here.

BTW- I'll leave it up to you AD, should I make this a separate thread, so it will get more looks discussion traction, as this thread has pretty much run its course?
 
I expect our secondary to be a huge strenght. I think people really are sleeping on gilmore. Yes he had some bad games last season against the jests and that blown coverage against us but the guy played well the second half of the season. Rowe will just get better. My only concern's linebacker because of the depth.

If linebacker depth is our greatest problem, then we are indeed in fine shape.

The following have started for us at LB. I think that Belichick is fine counting on any of them to get significant reps. We also should recall that we usually have 2 linebackers on the field. Also, Rivers may be able to play some linebacker this year.
Hightower
Ninkovich
Van Noy
McClellan
Roberts
Freeny
 
Yes the Pats have been the best team clearly of the past 15 years and no one is close but can we not act like the other teams don't belong in the NFL too?

Well to be fair, the Rats don't belong in the NFL*.
 
Your post got me thinking about 2 facts that seem to contradict themselves. One is the fact that ALL these coaches have an amazing amount of football knowledge. I concider myself a knowledgeable football FAN, who knows more football than most, but I know I know about 5% of what a full time professional coach knows. So it is very hard for me to call an NFL coach stupid or inept, because I KNOW just how much more info he has than me. Guys who coach in the NFL have reached the top of their profession. They are all smart, motivated, hard working, organized and driven people who have worked their way up a hard ladder that take years and sometimes decades to acheive.

On the other hand, you have the undeniable fact that in most games that Pats play they have a better game plan on both sides of the ball than their opponents. So how is this happening. It can't be that Bill just knows that much more football than his peers. I think that is just too easy an answer, and quite frankly probably isn't true.

So it got me thinking about just why this keeps happening, and I've come up with a reason (just one of many), that probably deserves its own thread titled, "Why the Pats keep winning". But for now I offer this tidbit for discussion.

The first thing that occurred to me was what a huge advantage it is to be able to structure completely different offensive and defensive game plans based on who you are playing each and every week. PLUS have the ability to make adjustments so seamlessly and so fast. That advantage alone can account for why the Pats win so consistently. They always maximize matchup advantages. They counter what good things opposing teams are doing to them. They manage the game probable better than their opponent.

In a game where the margin of victory is as small as it is in the NFL, going into a game with that kind of advantage each week can be that slight edge that make the difference between winning and losing,

So why doesn't EVERY team do it that way. The reason is that they can't. It's just too hard to coach a different game plan each week. Unless it is ingrained into your system over years of development, it would create more mental mistakes than it would create matchup advantages.

Football players as well as coaches are creatures of habit. They thrive doing the same thing every week. The biggest enemy of good play is THINKING. Players play their best and fastest when they are just reacting without thought to something that they've seen over an over again. Asking them to be able to absorb a different game plan every week could create the over thinking that slows down their reaction time.

I believe it has taken years for BB to develop the language to teach his system. Develop how to teach his coaches to be able to teach this system, and finally and most importantly, identify the players who will be able to absorb this kind of system. Like we always say, it isn't for everyone.

The continuity it takes to create this kind of "system" is very rare in the NFL, where the lifespan of most HC's is about 5 years. So many moving parts have to come together in order for it to be effective. It is NOT something a new HC could come in and do in his first year.

Understandably this topic is stuff that books should be written about and MBA programs across the country should be studying for managment and communication lessons. And you know me, I'd LOVE to go on.....and on, ;)
But unfortunately (or fortunately for some) responsibilities require me to stop here.

BTW- I'll leave it up to you AD, should I make this a separate thread, so it will get more looks discussion traction, as this thread has pretty much run its course?

Oh absolutely! I think it's actually a really great discussion point in the doldrums of the off-season. You mention how gameplans and systems take years to develop and enhance. But some coaches stay with the exact same system without adapting, like a Mike Tomlin. I'd love to hear your thoughts on why you think that may be (and I'm sure you have a few!) ;)

PS: A thread titled "Why the Pats Keep Winning" would be awesome to post when the Pats get their rings in June. Just a thought. :p
 
Your post got me thinking about 2 facts that seem to contradict themselves. One is the fact that ALL these coaches have an amazing amount of football knowledge. I concider myself a knowledgeable football FAN, who knows more football than most, but I know I know about 5% of what a full time professional coach knows. So it is very hard for me to call an NFL coach stupid or inept, because I KNOW just how much more info he has than me. Guys who coach in the NFL have reached the top of their profession. They are all smart, motivated, hard working, organized and driven people who have worked their way up a hard ladder that take years and sometimes decades to acheive.

On the other hand, you have the undeniable fact that in most games that Pats play they have a better game plan on both sides of the ball than their opponents. So how is this happening. It can't be that Bill just knows that much more football than his peers. I think that is just too easy an answer, and quite frankly probably isn't true.

So it got me thinking about just why this keeps happening, and I've come up with a reason (just one of many), that probably deserves its own thread titled, "Why the Pats keep winning". But for now I offer this tidbit for discussion.

The first thing that occurred to me was what a huge advantage it is to be able to structure completely different offensive and defensive game plans based on who you are playing each and every week. PLUS have the ability to make adjustments so seamlessly and so fast. That advantage alone can account for why the Pats win so consistently. They always maximize matchup advantages. They counter what good things opposing teams are doing to them. They manage the game probable better than their opponent.

In a game where the margin of victory is as small as it is in the NFL, going into a game with that kind of advantage each week can be that slight edge that make the difference between winning and losing,

So why doesn't EVERY team do it that way. The reason is that they can't. It's just too hard to coach a different game plan each week. Unless it is ingrained into your system over years of development, it would create more mental mistakes than it would create matchup advantages.

Football players as well as coaches are creatures of habit. They thrive doing the same thing every week. The biggest enemy of good play is THINKING. Players play their best and fastest when they are just reacting without thought to something that they've seen over an over again. Asking them to be able to absorb a different game plan every week could create the over thinking that slows down their reaction time.

I believe it has taken years for BB to develop the language to teach his system. Develop how to teach his coaches to be able to teach this system, and finally and most importantly, identify the players who will be able to absorb this kind of system. Like we always say, it isn't for everyone.

The continuity it takes to create this kind of "system" is very rare in the NFL, where the lifespan of most HC's is about 5 years. So many moving parts have to come together in order for it to be effective. It is NOT something a new HC could come in and do in his first year.

Understandably this topic is stuff that books should be written about and MBA programs across the country should be studying for managment and communication lessons. And you know me, I'd LOVE to go on.....and on, ;)
But unfortunately (or fortunately for some) responsibilities require me to stop here.

BTW- I'll leave it up to you AD, should I make this a separate thread, so it will get more looks discussion traction, as this thread has pretty much run its course?
When critiqus are made of our various squads ti is important to keep thinks in a proper perspective, The IOL may be weak(er), but it is relative that even as a younger IOL went 14-2, so they may be weaker but they are NOT gaping holes and incompetents.

Your views are great except with regard to QB. I refuse to see having the two best QBs as a squad, is a weakness. Off the first 45 minutes of the SB LI, Brady is in decline and fading. Late game heroics show how he can rally wonderfully. But he still had to a have a magnificent rally.
 
Your views are great except with regard to QB. I refuse to see having the two best QBs as a squad, is a weakness. Off the first 45 minutes of the SB LI, Brady is in decline and fading. Late game heroics show how he can rally wonderfully. But he still had to a have a magnificent rally.

Fake news. The OL sucked, the Coaches had gameplanned for a completely different Atlanta defense than the one they got, the receivers couldn't get open and they had no running game, and the D was having it's own issues.

STFU!
 
Agreed.

If every offensive lineman remains healthy for the year, they can have results equal or better than last year. So, your conclusion is "don't worry, be happy"?

Look at the depth in the rest of the offense, at QB, at WR, at RB, at TE, and even at OT (last year's two backups plus 2 draftees).

Now look at the IOL. We're not discussing a 53 man, or even a 60 man roster. We are discussing a 90 man roster. The difference in the depth (and the quality of the depth) at IOL compared to the rest of the offense is pretty dramatic.

My conclusion is that we will have at least 2 non-rookie IOL's in training camp that aren't on the current 90 man roster. Maybe Karras, Barker and other PS players are enough; or just maybe, they could use some competition. Of course, this presumes that you believe our starting 5 are not being upgraded, which could certainly possible.

For example, I would feel much better with Mangold at center, and Andrews as a backup, or even with Andrews as the starter and Mangold as a Game Day backup.

When critiqus are made of our various squads ti is important to keep thinks in a proper perspective, The IOL may be weak(er), but it is relative that even as a younger IOL went 14-2, so they may be weaker but they are NOT gaping holes and incompetents.
 
Your post got me thinking about 2 facts that seem to contradict themselves. One is the fact that ALL these coaches have an amazing amount of football knowledge. I concider myself a knowledgeable football FAN, who knows more football than most, but I know I know about 5% of what a full time professional coach knows. So it is very hard for me to call an NFL coach stupid or inept, because I KNOW just how much more info he has than me. Guys who coach in the NFL have reached the top of their profession. They are all smart, motivated, hard working, organized and driven people who have worked their way up a hard ladder that take years and sometimes decades to acheive.

On the other hand, you have the undeniable fact that in most games that Pats play they have a better game plan on both sides of the ball than their opponents. So how is this happening. It can't be that Bill just knows that much more football than his peers. I think that is just too easy an answer, and quite frankly probably isn't true.

So it got me thinking about just why this keeps happening, and I've come up with a reason (just one of many), that probably deserves its own thread titled, "Why the Pats keep winning". But for now I offer this tidbit for discussion.

The first thing that occurred to me was what a huge advantage it is to be able to structure completely different offensive and defensive game plans based on who you are playing each and every week. PLUS have the ability to make adjustments so seamlessly and so fast. That advantage alone can account for why the Pats win so consistently. They always maximize matchup advantages. They counter what good things opposing teams are doing to them. They manage the game probable better than their opponent.

In a game where the margin of victory is as small as it is in the NFL, going into a game with that kind of advantage each week can be that slight edge that make the difference between winning and losing,

So why doesn't EVERY team do it that way. The reason is that they can't. It's just too hard to coach a different game plan each week. Unless it is ingrained into your system over years of development, it would create more mental mistakes than it would create matchup advantages.

Football players as well as coaches are creatures of habit. They thrive doing the same thing every week. The biggest enemy of good play is THINKING. Players play their best and fastest when they are just reacting without thought to something that they've seen over an over again. Asking them to be able to absorb a different game plan every week could create the over thinking that slows down their reaction time.

I believe it has taken years for BB to develop the language to teach his system. Develop how to teach his coaches to be able to teach this system, and finally and most importantly, identify the players who will be able to absorb this kind of system. Like we always say, it isn't for everyone.

The continuity it takes to create this kind of "system" is very rare in the NFL, where the lifespan of most HC's is about 5 years. So many moving parts have to come together in order for it to be effective. It is NOT something a new HC could come in and do in his first year.

Understandably this topic is stuff that books should be written about and MBA programs across the country should be studying for managment and communication lessons. And you know me, I'd LOVE to go on.....and on, ;)
But unfortunately (or fortunately for some) responsibilities require me to stop here.

BTW- I'll leave it up to you AD, should I make this a separate thread, so it will get more looks discussion traction, as this thread has pretty much run its course?

Very good post and I have some theories on why the coaches who should know more about the game than us tend to do things we don't understand. It is a few reasons in my mind.

#1 Coaches get so hung up on the little things they forget the big picture. Andy Reid is guilty of this a lot. He builds his team to have it run a certain way but doesn't manage the clock and is so stuck in his mind set he can't see the obvious in the moment.

#2 Trying too hard not to lose. Coaches in the NFL are too conservative. They would rather play it safe than take a risk even when you should take the risk. They would rather have a sure 10% chance to win in the final 5 minutes as oppose to risking losing then and there on a 50/50 shot to try to get up to 30-40%. It is a big issue with a lot of coaches and one of the best things about BB is he recognizes times to take risk and times not to and has the courage to do it. Coaches know a lose counts the same on your record but getting blown out trying to take risk to win can cost you your job.

#3 Coaches aren't that much more knowledgeable in ways that count. Sometimes we give NFL head coaches too much credit. There are only a few who truly are the real deal and the rest as guys who don't offer much more than a low level coach in high school or college might. Football is a sport that is it very hard to see the whole picture clearly. And at times seeing only 70% or 80% of the picture isn't much more useful than seeing 10% or 20%. Particularly if you get so focused on the small things you are not ready for the big things.
 
Your post got me thinking about 2 facts that seem to contradict themselves. One is the fact that ALL these coaches have an amazing amount of football knowledge. I concider myself a knowledgeable football FAN, who knows more football than most, but I know I know about 5% of what a full time professional coach knows. So it is very hard for me to call an NFL coach stupid or inept, because I KNOW just how much more info he has than me. Guys who coach in the NFL have reached the top of their profession. They are all smart, motivated, hard working, organized and driven people who have worked their way up a hard ladder that take years and sometimes decades to acheive.

On the other hand, you have the undeniable fact that in most games that Pats play they have a better game plan on both sides of the ball than their opponents. So how is this happening. It can't be that Bill just knows that much more football than his peers. I think that is just too easy an answer, and quite frankly probably isn't true.

So it got me thinking about just why this keeps happening, and I've come up with a reason (just one of many), that probably deserves its own thread titled, "Why the Pats keep winning". But for now I offer this tidbit for discussion.

The first thing that occurred to me was what a huge advantage it is to be able to structure completely different offensive and defensive game plans based on who you are playing each and every week. PLUS have the ability to make adjustments so seamlessly and so fast. That advantage alone can account for why the Pats win so consistently. They always maximize matchup advantages. They counter what good things opposing teams are doing to them. They manage the game probable better than their opponent.

In a game where the margin of victory is as small as it is in the NFL, going into a game with that kind of advantage each week can be that slight edge that make the difference between winning and losing,

So why doesn't EVERY team do it that way. The reason is that they can't. It's just too hard to coach a different game plan each week. Unless it is ingrained into your system over years of development, it would create more mental mistakes than it would create matchup advantages.

Football players as well as coaches are creatures of habit. They thrive doing the same thing every week. The biggest enemy of good play is THINKING. Players play their best and fastest when they are just reacting without thought to something that they've seen over an over again. Asking them to be able to absorb a different game plan every week could create the over thinking that slows down their reaction time.

I believe it has taken years for BB to develop the language to teach his system. Develop how to teach his coaches to be able to teach this system, and finally and most importantly, identify the players who will be able to absorb this kind of system. Like we always say, it isn't for everyone.

The continuity it takes to create this kind of "system" is very rare in the NFL, where the lifespan of most HC's is about 5 years. So many moving parts have to come together in order for it to be effective. It is NOT something a new HC could come in and do in his first year.

Understandably this topic is stuff that books should be written about and MBA programs across the country should be studying for managment and communication lessons. And you know me, I'd LOVE to go on.....and on, ;)
But unfortunately (or fortunately for some) responsibilities require me to stop here.

BTW- I'll leave it up to you AD, should I make this a separate thread, so it will get more looks discussion traction, as this thread has pretty much run its course?
I would also add, referencing Occam's Razor, that Belichick is simply brighter than most of the other coaches, and I have a suspicion that his coaching staff is more intelligent than other staffs, as well. (Not many guys can get an engineering degree from RPI, like Patricia.) Yes, all the coaches have a great knowledge of the game, but to employ that knowledge in the dynamic situations that arise in the course of a season and the course of a game is a challenge. I'm not suggesting that Belichick get the next Nobel Prize for economics, but among his peers, I think his Wonderlic is the highest.
 
Trying too hard not to lose. Coaches in the NFL are too conservative.

I absolutely agree. Few coaches other than Belichick are secure enough to gamble on a high-risk play even if the odds favor the call. But I don't think that has all that much impact - certainly I don't recall Belichick making many high-risk plays in the last several years. (Except of course for the notorious one that I prefer not to mention - but even that was very likely the right call). Of course Belichick doesn't need to make these high-risk calls that often.

Weaker teams playing the Pats should absolutely go for high variance plays. Go for two pretty much always - pretty close to the same expected value and twice the variance. Go for it on fourth and four with decent field position. Unexpected on-side kicks. More long balls. But keep those high-risk blitz packages on the sideline - Tom will eat you up. :)
 
I think one thing that the other teams have a hard time matching the Patriots is the unity of purpose between Owner, GM, and Coach. This of course is because Bill is GM and Coach and Kraft has learned to stay out of football operations. Off of easy memory we could recite a litany of moves on other teams where that is not the case. Ryan Pace trading for Trubisky without telling John Fox. Woody Johnson meddling with the Jets, demanding a win now stance when it'd be wiser to rebuild. Tannenbaum drafting Vlad Ducasse and making them play him in the OL rotation when he sucked. The Texans with Brock Osweiler. Rex Ryan getting one pick in each draft as "his" guy, as detailed in Collision Low Crossers. I'm sure we could keep citing examples. With the Pats, the chain of command is clear, puzzling 2nd round picks and all.

I'm sure if we knew more about what went on in team's weekly meeting rooms, we'd find more gameday strategy examples than the personnel examples I cited here.
 
I sincerely hope you are right. But I don't see the Pats being able to "Franchise and trade him" next season.

Where will the market be? Next season is shaping up to be one of the better QB drafts in a while, and 4 teams will already have QB's they took high this year. What can they get for JG when everyone knows they HAVE to trade him. Despite what some people say, the Pats aren't going to carry a $45-50MM cap charge for 2 QB's

What you say about the benefits of having JG on the roster this year is true. But that kind of insurance is very expensive if it cost the Pats 3 high end picks.
Ken,
Yu still think of Polo as a cost. I see him as an opportunity but not a guarantee to continue the dynasty. The most important depth you can have us at QB, and BB, through luck or perspicacity, has that in Spades. There is no guarantee that POLO will be a future Brady; but he has demonstrated that he is certainly likely to be a good to very good starter.

You cant ask for more.
 
I would also add, referencing Occam's Razor, that Belichick is simply brighter than most of the other coaches, and I have a suspicion that his coaching staff is more intelligent than other staffs, as well. (Not many guys can get an engineering degree from RPI, like Patricia.) Yes, all the coaches have a great knowledge of the game, but to employ that knowledge in the dynamic situations that arise in the course of a season and the course of a game is a challenge. I'm not suggesting that Belichick get the next Nobel Prize for economics, but among his peers, I think his Wonderlic is the highest.

If BB is not an actual genius overall, and I'm not sure what the actual criteria is, although he may be a genius, he is most definately a genius in all things football.

He is a true football savant.
 
If BB is not an actual genius overall, and I'm not sure what the actual criteria is, although he may be a genius, he is most definately a genius in all things football.

He is a true football savant.
a true poster child for term limits.
at least as far as the other 31 are concerned.
 
Good stuff, Ken. I too, agree that the margin is thinner than most realize, and that the high bar of expectations can throw a wrench into the thinking that we have, as fans.

At the end of the day, there are still weaknesses just like any team. We just hope they are less than the opposition, and that both luck and health benefit our squad. The goals are still to win the division, secure a bye, try to gain HFA, and go from there.
 
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