Butler & Saints working towards finalizing a deal (Thread now UFC Pats Fans Event)

XLIX said:

Plus I'd bet Butler could file a grievance against that if he wanted to so he would have to be on board with the whole plan as well.

Click to expand...

IIRC, CBA says the player and the NFLPA have to approve any trade in an RFA sign-and-trade situation.

moosekill said:

I want to make sure I understand this.

Option 1 is Butler agrees to a contract with the Saints. If this happens then
1a. The Patriots match the offer then Butler stays in New England at the agreed upon contract and the Saints get nothing.
1b. If the Pats don't match the offer, the Pats get NO's pick #11 and Butler goes to NO. This hasn't happened in the league in a long time because I guess teams value their #1 picks more than signing a free agent to a contract higher than their original team is willing to pay, and having to give up their first round pick.

Option 2 Butler doesn't agree with NO and signs the RFA thingy and then is back to the Patriots for $3.9 mill this year.
2a. Patriots could sign him to a long term deal if they want.
2b. Patriots could trade him to another team for whatever they can get. Which could be NO's 32 pick, a second round, or whatever another team is willing to pay.
2c. Patriots could do him nothing and let him play here this year for $3.9 million then either he walks, he works out a long term contract, or he is franchised for 2018.

Click to expand...

That's correct as far as it goes, but you are missing Option 3 (which perhaps is better called Option 1A).

Option 3 is Butler and the Saints work out a contract that Butler would be willing to sign and that the Saints would also be willing to sign, but not at the price of their #11. If this happens, then:
3a. Butler tells NE he wants to be traded to the Saints.
3b. The Saints make it known to NE (safest is probably via Butler's agent) that they're willing to give up the #32 (or whatever) for Butler.
3c. Butler signs NE's tender.
3d. NE trades Butler to the Saints for what was "agreed" on with the Saints.
3e. Butler and the Saints agree to rip up the 1yr tender contract.
3f. Butler and the Saints sign the contract they had worked out.

XLIX said:

I suppose it's legal but keep in mind that Butler is under no obligation to just accept any offer sheet that any other team presents and the Patriots can choose to match any offer he does accept.

So in order to sign Butler in the first place, the Falcons would have to offer a big enough contract to induce Butler to sign it - not to mention big enough that the Patriots won't match it. Presumably that would include a large signing bonus and/or a lot of guaranteed money. Of course, it would also have to be small enough that the Saints were willing to adopt the contract. I can't imagine a situation where it is worth going through all that trouble to pick up a 4th rounder.

Plus I'd bet Butler could file a grievance against that if he wanted to so he would have to be on board with the whole plan as well.

Click to expand...

Good points. I was basically trying to think of way the Pats would lose leverage. If Butler and the Saints hashed out a contract but Atlanta signs it and sends it to New Orleans where Malcom wants to be for less than the 11th overall. It's not legal under the CBA, but it'd hurt the Pats, so Goodell probably wouldn't do anything about it.

moosekill said:

I want to make sure I understand this.

Option 1 is Butler agrees to a contract with the Saints. If this happens then
1a. The Patriots match the offer then Butler stays in New England at the agreed upon contract and the Saints get nothing.
1b. If the Pats don't match the offer, the Pats get NO's pick #11 and Butler goes to NO. This hasn't happened in the league in a long time because I guess teams value their #1 picks more than signing a free agent to a contract higher than their original team is willing to pay, and having to give up their first round pick.

Option 2 Butler doesn't agree with NO and signs the RFA thingy and then is back to the Patriots for $3.9 mill this year.
2a. Patriots could sign him to a long term deal if they want.
2b. Patriots could trade him to another team for whatever they can get. Which could be NO's 32 pick, a second round, or whatever another team is willing to pay.
2c. Patriots could do him nothing and let him play here this year for $3.9 million then either he walks, he works out a long term contract, or he is franchised for 2018.

Am I missing anything or is this right, I got lost in the long discussion about the collective bargaining and the teams discussing stuff before hand, and teams working stuff out, and the Cook wink wink nod nod stuff.

I must admit, having the Saints spend all this time working out a contract with Butler while thinking the Patriots will turn around and trade him for a lower pick than #11 seems a little far fetched, but I guess we will see.

Click to expand...

AFAIK, this is exactly right. In order for Butler to get traded from the Patriots to the Saints, he has to be under contract with the Patriots. He is not currently under contract with the Patriots. He is a FREE AGENT at the moment. A *RESTRICTED* free agent, not an *UNRESTRICTED* one, and that difference, as Butler is discovering, is enormous. Gilmore was UNrestricted, meaning he could sign with any team, for whatever price he could get. Butler is free to negotiate a contract with any team, just like Gilmore was, but the moment he signs that contract offer, the Patriots have the last word - they can match or not match. If they match, Butler ends up in New England under those same exact terms he signed for with the other team. If they don't match, Butler ends up on that new team, but the Patriots, by rule, end up with that team's 1st round draft pick.

If Butler wants to be *TRADED* to another team, he first has to be under contract with the Patriots, so that means he has to either (a) sign the $3.9 million tender the Patriots offered him, or (b) negotiate another contract with the Patriots.

If he signs the $3.9 million tender, then the Patriots can THEN choose to trade him for whatever the best offer is they can get in return (maybe another team wants to give more than a 1st round pick; maybe the best they can get is a 3rd round pick...WHO KNOWS). OR they can simply choose to keep him on the team for 2017 at the $3.9 million contract they offered, and Butler signed.

Butler wonders why he isn't making as much money as Gilmore? This is why. He's a *restricted* free agent, which means there are all sorts of strings attached to teams looking to sign him. He's not an *unrestricted* free agent like Gilmore was.

People are trying to make this too complicated. It's actually not.

Palm Beach Pats Fan said:

Butler gets offer sheet, we don't match, we get the Saints #11 pick, THEN we trade back to the Saints that #11 pick for #32, #forty-whatever (Saints 2nd), and a conditional late-rounder next year.

Cleanest way to do it.

Discuss with the Saints "if we somehow were to get a pick in the 10-12 range in this draft, we will trade it to you for #32, #forty-whatever (Saints 2nd), and a conditional late-rounder next year."

Butler's name never comes up!

Click to expand...

If I were to put money on how this Butler situation works out that would be it.

People are just looking for something to talk about. I don't think their has been actual real news since Butler visited New Orleans. Has he even visited anywhere else?

Their is a lot of posturing going on from all sides. I don't think anything goes down until the drafts draws closer. I'm personally not to worried what happens either way.

I'm excited to see what we do with our remaining cap room. I know a lot of the money is like earmarked for some new contracts. But I also expect a few more veteran signings at RB, DL and LB on one year deals.

ivanvamp said:

AFAIK, this is exactly right. In order for Butler to get traded from the Patriots to the Saints, he has to be under contract with the Patriots. He is not currently under contract with the Patriots. He is a FREE AGENT at the moment. A *RESTRICTED* free agent, not an *UNRESTRICTED* one, and that difference, as Butler is discovering, is enormous. Gilmore was UNrestricted, meaning he could sign with any team, for whatever price he could get. Butler is free to negotiate a contract with any team, just like Gilmore was, but the moment he signs that contract offer, the Patriots have the last word - they can match or not match. If they match, Butler ends up in New England under those same exact terms he signed for with the other team. If they don't match, Butler ends up on that new team, but the Patriots, by rule, end up with that team's 1st round draft pick.

If Butler wants to be *TRADED* to another team, he first has to be under contract with the Patriots, so that means he has to either (a) sign the $3.9 million tender the Patriots offered him, or (b) negotiate another contract with the Patriots.

If he signs the $3.9 million tender, then the Patriots can THEN choose to trade him for whatever the best offer is they can get in return (maybe another team wants to give more than a 1st round pick; maybe the best they can get is a 3rd round pick...WHO KNOWS). OR they can simply choose to keep him on the team for 2017 at the $3.9 million contract they offered, and Butler signed.

Butler wonders why he isn't making as much money as Gilmore? This is why. He's a *restricted* free agent, which means there are all sorts of strings attached to teams looking to sign him. He's not an *unrestricted* free agent like Gilmore was.

People are trying to make this too complicated. It's actually not.

Click to expand...

Ive reached my breaking point on people who fail to grasp the situation for what it is.

People need to understand the differences between a "Market Economy" and a "Command/Planned Economy".

Once they do they will understand why Malcolm is not getting top dollar this year

QuantumMechanic said:

That's correct as far as it goes, but you are missing Option 3 (which perhaps is better called Option 1A).

Option 3 is Butler and the Saints work out a contract that Butler would be willing to sign and that the Saints would also be willing to sign, but not at the price of their #11. If this happens, then:
3a. Butler tells NE he wants to be traded to the Saints.
3b. The Saints make it known to NE (safest is probably via Butler's agent) that they're willing to give up the #32 (or whatever) for Butler.
3c. Butler signs NE's tender.
3d. NE trades Butler to the Saints for what was "agreed" on with the Saints.
3e. Butler and the Saints agree to rip up the 1yr tender contract.
3f. Butler and the Saints sign the contract they had worked out.

Click to expand...

I thought a player had to wait a year to "renegotiate" a contract meaning once he signs the tender, that contract is in force for a year. I believe he would have to sign the NO offer sheet, then the Pats announce not to match in return for suitable compensation offered by NO.

ivanvamp said:

Butler wonders why he isn't making as much money as Gilmore? This is why. He's a *restricted* free agent, which means there are all sorts of strings attached to teams looking to sign him. He's not an *unrestricted* free agent like Gilmore was.

People are trying to make this too complicated. It's actually not.

Click to expand...

It's also complicated by the fact that people completely make stuff up out of thin air and talk about it as if it were fact. For example, there is no evidence whatsoever that Butler is demanding Gilmore money or "wondering" why he isn't getting offers as big as Gilmore, but you present the above notion as if it was accepted fact.

There is also no evidence at all that NO isn't planning on signing him to a tender sheet with the #11 pick in play, it is simply people saying there is no way they would do that. I have no idea.

robertweathers said:

Ive reached my breaking point on people who fail to grasp the situation for what it is.

People need to understand the differences between a "Market Economy" and a "Command/Planned Economy".

Once they do they will understand why Malcolm is not getting top dollar this year

Click to expand...

Even if they can't understand those terms, at least they should be able tell the difference between the terms "restricted" and "unrestricted".

XLIX said:

It's also complicated by the fact that people completely make stuff up out of thin air and talk about it as if it were fact. For example, there is no evidence whatsoever that Butler is demanding Gilmore money or "wondering" why he isn't getting offers as big as Gilmore, but you present the above notion as if it was accepted fact.

Click to expand...

Giardi who has made it known he is Butler and his agents mouth piece in the media pretty much said he's looking for Gilmore money

moosekill said:

There is also no evidence at all that NO isn't planning on signing him to a tender sheet with the #11 pick in play, it is simply people saying there is no way they would do that. I have no idea.

Click to expand...

Well, there are people who apply rational thought to it and realize it is ridiculous for the Saints to give away #11 for a 27 year old that is already playing at his peak at close to market price. Can't take anyone serious who believes that it is an option.

JMC00 said:

Giardi who has made it known he is Butler and his agents mouth piece in the media pretty much said he's looking for Gilmore

Click to expand...

If he really is that naive then he really deserves what is coming his way.

well pat kirwin thinks butler to saints for pick 32.

JMC00 said:

Giardi who has made it known he is Butler and his agents mouth piece in the media pretty much said he's looking for Gilmore

Click to expand...

Malcolm Butler Reportedly Frustrated With Patriots; Agent Trying To Find Trade Partner

Malcolm Butler now looking elsewhere for long term deal

Agent for frustrated Malcolm Butler reportedly looking to swing deal with new team

Source: Malcolm Butler feels stung by Patriots after Gilmore signing

Patriots Rumors: Malcolm Butler 'Frustrated' with Stephon Gilmore Signing

Agent of Patriots CB Malcolm Butler trying to get client out of New England

Report: Malcolm Butler 'dissatisfied' with contract situation



Giardi: Butler courting offers elsewhere, wants new home

Malcolm Butler wants out of New England, reportedly


Clearly Giardi is the main source for these stories, but he's not the only one.

TommyBrady12 said:

well pat kirwin thinks butler to saints for pick 32.

Click to expand...

I think Pat Kirwan has got this particular take badly wrong. Bill Belichick is not in the business of bending over to do his buddies a solid.

And in any case I'm pretty sure this much vaunted close friendship between Bill Belichick and Sean Payton is being vastly overstated. Just because the have mutual respect doesn't mean they're cool with giving up 21 spots in the draft

JMC00 said:

Giardi who has made it known he is Butler and his agents mouth piece in the media pretty much said he's looking for Gilmore money

Click to expand...

Where was this reported? I missed it, but would be interested in seeing the article.

This narrative that the Pats won't "give up" the #11 pick and settle for the 32 is ridiculous. The fact that the Saints would have to give up #11 to sign Butler as an RFA is completely unrelated to his trade value from the Saints or any other team. It only matters if the Patriots believe that the Saints are willing to sign him outright and lose their 1st, and most seem to think that they aren't willing to do so, and I can't imagine that they would sign Butler to a huge deal and give up #11 outright, but what if Butler's deal were much cheaper......

What if the Patriots and Saints get extremely creative, much like the Browns and Texans with the Patriots finding a way to ease the cap cost for the Saints of signing Butler? Here is my idea, let's say that the Saints get Butler to agree to a 5 year $55 million dollar deal, but instead of the Patriots trading Butler on the tender and the Saints signing him to the deal, the Patriots sign him to the deal with a $15 million instant signing bonus. The Saints would have to guarantee more money down the road, but would essentially be getting Butler on a 5 year $40 million deal. The Patriots eat $15 million in dead money (which they certainly can afford), but use that to get far more draft capital for Butler than he would otherwise net.

luuked said:

If he really is that naive then he really deserves what is coming his way.

Click to expand...

What's "coming his way"? 5/$50M in NO?