Butler & Saints working towards finalizing a deal (Thread now UFC Pats Fans Event)

Keyser Söze said:

#11 would make it sting a lot less

Click to expand...

If the Saints were willing to give #11, they could have signed him to an offer sheet. Either they won't give #11, or they could not come to terms on a contract (or both).

There was probably a deal in place to have Butler part of the original Cooks trade. That had to be scrapped because of Butler not signing the tender and Cook's bonus becoming due. After hearing the other offers NO received for Cooks the Patriots put together the deal for a 1 and a 3 for Cooks and a 4. That was the best value deal out there for NO.
SP got the most he could from BB. None of this I am doing you a solid type deal. That being said. I do not think BB is going to do any solids for SP with the Butler trade. He will not take less to do SP a favor. He always does what is best for the team. Not sure what Butlers value is. I just know how to watch us win SB's. But if and when a trade is consummated. I trust that to be the value.

slash83 said:

Only reason I want the Pats having a 1st rounder is to see Goddell announce them as SB Champs one more time, that ass hole.

Click to expand...

Last time we won he didn't announce us as the champs...

BB's recent history of "Player X is probably leaving next season, might as well get value"

(Not counting Collins. That seemed more of subtraction by addition in terms of integrity of defense/team defense/etc.)

2016: Chandler Jones for 61st overall pick + Jonathan Cooper (call him a 7th round pick)

2014: Logan Mankins for 4th round pick + Tim Wright (7th round pick)

2010: Randy Moss + 7th round pick for 3rd round pick (similar in season trade to Collins)

2009: Ellis Hobbs for two fifth round picks

2009: Richard Seymour for Raiders 2011 first round pick (eventually 17th overall)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Butler is better than all of those players besides Richard Seymour. He cost a hefty price from the Raiders.

Still not sure if BB would value the 32nd overall pick over a season of Butler. History says...maybe?

Keyser Söze said:

#11 would make it sting a lot less

Click to expand...

Well, however it shakes out I'm glad that it appears that the Pats are angling for more than the #32 and the delay isn't just some procedural thing.

I say that because it seems like Lombardi is as close to a Belichick spokesman as we have these days, I think.

I'm pretty sure the two teams would both be breaking all sorts of rules if they were to have even unofficial trade talks. The only thing they can really do here is wait for Butler to make a decision either on the tender, or on an offer sheet. Right? Since these are both franchises that have been busted severely by the commissioner, what's the likelihood that there's been underground communication? I would think it must be very low.

PatriotsPimp136 said:

I like this draft but having butler back would be better than any draft pick at number 32. That's how i feel about it.

Click to expand...

Yes, but not #11.... I'd rather have zach Cunningham

Don Kipines said:

I'm pretty sure the two teams would both be breaking all sorts of rules if they were to have even unofficial trade talks. The only thing they can really do here is wait for Butler to make a decision either on the tender, or on an offer sheet. Right? Since these are both franchises that have been busted severely by the commissioner, what's the likelihood that there's been underground communication? I would think it must be very low.

Click to expand...

I don't think it is breaking any rules. The Patriots cannot act in bad faith; i.e. slap the tender on Butler with no intention of honoring it simply to restrict his movement. But Butler is a free agent. A restricted free agent, but a free agent nonetheless, so I don't think there are any limitations to what teams can discuss involving him.

The CBA itself says teams must behave in good faith, and I think the Patriots are certainly doing so in this case. If Butler thought there were negotiating in bad faith, he can file a grievance, but there is no indication that is the case.

Realistically the patriots dont have to trade butler unless he is really adament about getting out of NE and the saints are offering an amount the pats wouldnt pay butler themselves.

I have a feeling that once Butler realised he isnt getting gilmore $$ this year because of the rfa he will play on the tender and look for that $$ next year.

Then franchised the next year hopefully.

robertweathers said:

Whats Lombardi doing? Calling Payton and suggesting he not to do the deal and mucking up the works for BB?

This doesn't make sense.

Click to expand...

I don't think he's calling anyone and suggesting anything - he's just a media guy with FO experience offering his take on what he thinks the Saints should do (but probably won't, since he thinks they're overly locked into binary thinking, and not diligent enough about exploring alternative options).

Lombardi's take was that one area where the Saints have consistently failed is in not defining what they want their defense--and specifically their secondary--to be. If they want to run a Seahawks-like defensive scheme--and it appears they do--then he said that Butler is capable in such a scheme, but is not ideally suited for it. Basically it was a point made re: system fit, and an observation on his part that the Saints have not historically done well making these kinds of evaluations.

Mack Herron said:

And BB has been firing nothing but bull's eyes since free agency opened.

Click to expand...

The way the Seahawks built their roster--and the way they won games--pretty much required that they were going to have a 3-4 year window. They absolutely killed the draft for a few years when Carroll first got there. Their 2010-2012 draft classes was one of the best three-year runs we'll ever see, IMO. He was drafting guys that he'd been scouting since high school, and who he'd coached and coached against while coaching at USC. He had a level of familiarity with all the good prospects that nobody in the league could match, not even Belichick. It was a product of how he'd spent the previous few years.

But as soon as those guys aged out of their rookie deals, it was going to become a matter of whether or not they could keep identifying great talent in the draft, even while picking near the end of every round, without Carroll having the built-in advantage of drafting guys he was so familiar with from his USC years. It turned out that they weren't up to the challenge, and they compounded that problem by trading first round picks for Jimmy Graham and Percy Harvin. When people point out the value of cost control in first round picks, and how that makes trading first rounders for high-priced players an unsustainable, failing move, you don't need to look any further than Seattle to see that in action.

What young, cheap talent do they have anymore? Since 2012, their track record in the draft has not been impressive at all. By my count, they got one starter out of 2013 and 2014 combined, and depending on how you feel about Frank Clark, Tyler Lockett, Germain Ifedi and Tyler Lockett, 2015 and 2016 might not be much better.

At this point, I think they're pretty much in 2009 Patriots territory. They've still got the stars, but there's not a whole lot to the roster behind them. They'd better pray for good health, because I think there are 4 different guys at this point that, if their season ends, they effectively become noncontenders. I don't see their roster surviving an injury to Wilson, Wagner, Thomas or Sherman in any competitive way.

fnordcircle said:

I hope he's factoring that into his choices no matter how hot he might be about it all right now.

Click to expand...

I guess I just don't understand what he'd be hot about. He's got a $4 million offer in front of him for a year, and untold millions after that. He's doing absolutely fine. It's weird.

aluminum seats said:

I guess I just don't understand what he'd be hot about. He's got a $4 million offer in front of him for a year, and untold millions after that. He's doing absolutely fine. It's weird.

Click to expand...

He could be pissed that Gilmore got the deal he wanted.

PatriotsPimp136 said:

If they don't wanna give us 11 than give us 32 and our 3rd rounder rounder back. Pick 103

Click to expand...

lol, the third rounder again.

Edelmania said:

What do you guys think about trading for Jason McCourty if Butler is traded? He has a 7M salary this year then is a FA. We could probably get him for a mid-late round pick.

Click to expand...

No. That McCourty is the terrible one.

BradyFTW! said:

because I think there are 4 different guys at this point that, if their season ends, they effectively become noncontenders. I don't see their roster surviving an injury to Wilson, Wagner, Thomas or Sherman in any competitive way.

Click to expand...

Need to add Chancellor to that list as well.

Just a few thoughts: Butler twitted that he was doing a signing at the South Shore Mall (IIRC) on Saturday. Did anyone go to this event? I'm sure every person he signed for told him they wanted him to stay. I wonder how he responded?

Here's the thing. IF he had a firm belief he'd be playing football for the Saints next year under some 8 figure contract, he wouldn't have flown back to NE to do a mall signing event. It makes no sense.

So I think he has NO idea what is happening and for the moment plans on being part of the 2017 Pats for at LEAST $4MM, until he is told otherwise.

QM has it right. UNTIL he signs his tender, he is free to talk with any team in the league to sign him under the RFA rules. BUT once that tender is signed, he is a member of the Pats and can't talk with any team......UNLESS he has the Pats permission. That is why it is still a possibility that after Butler signs the tender that the Pats, Butler and the Saints can work out a trade/contract scenario that works out for everyone..

That being said, the more I think on it, the more I think it would be in Butler's best interests to stay in NE for at least one more season. It's better for him both in the short and long term sense. He has basically only had one and a half seasons of great play. Another season on a superbowl contending team will solidify the perception of him as a top 5-10 CB.

I'd also like to think that by now he realizes that he is NOT going to get the same kind of top of the market CB deal that went to Norman, Sherman, Peterson, etc. He's good, but he's just not viewed as being that kind of guy. He's in a 2nd level, better than Ryan, but less than Peterson/Gilmore. It might not be a fair perception, but in the market place PERCEPTION rules.

The other thing I'm beginning to theorize is that NO might be coming to the conclusion that they really aren't in the position to give up even the #32 AND a 10-12MM/yr contract to a CB who, while being very good, isn't going to suddently make a dramatic change in that defense. They reside in a division where giants rule on the outside. So is Malcolm Butler really the answer here, or perhaps adding another Devon Breaux type with that #32. They are also in a weak cap situation where to add a big money contract would require them to heavily back load it, which is never a bright way to manage the cap.

The longer this goes on the more I will feel stronger that Butler will be back with the team. That being said, nother really HAS to happen until just before the draft

patfanken said:

Butler twitted

Click to expand...

I agree, he's definitely being a big twit right now for demanding UFA money. That goes for his agent as well.

AndyJohnson said:

Can we please stop using guesses about what a player asked for and/or the team offered or were willing to pay and act like they are fact?

Click to expand...

Attack of the Straw Men.