Offseason Free Agents thread....

supafly · Feb 10, 2017

IllegalContact said:
so you mean *want as in with conditions

if the pats don't offer him the market price .... which in this case is appearing to be about 12-12.5M per year, then they don't want him

to say they want him but only if he's cheaper is just a nice way of saying 'lowball'

I want a BMW but at a Kia price

Again, we know there have been players that Belichick has wanted to retain, but couldn't justify paying more than his value system would allow. He's openly admitted such. Last year with Hicks was a prime example of that, and we had the cap money available (still do) all season long. They could've kept him here if they could've agreed to a better deal. Unfortunately, another team stepped in and offered more money. Belichick didn't see the value there.

Why would anyone argue or disagree that we all haven't watched this happen during just about every single free agency period? Your suggestion that Belichick has passed on bringing in certain big name players in free agency or allowed others to take a better offer because "he doesn't want them" is ludicrous.

In your argument, I recently passed on the car that I could afford with money to spare because "I didn't want it." That's not true. I wanted it but just couldn't work out good value in our negotiations, so I had to walk away. This is something that we see with all teams every single year. They lose their own solid players and they pass on others...even though they have available cap room. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have liked to keep (or sign) those players.

I'm sure Belichick "wanted" Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald as a downfield threat, but he wasn't going to hand them blank checks, even though we had the cap space and potential to bring them here. C'mon, man. Your argument is not only weak, it's bizarre.

luuked · Feb 10, 2017

The Gr8est said:
Like Vereen before him, James White may have made himself a lot of money in this Superbowl. In a strong draft for RBs, it will be interesting to see if the Pats draft another Vereen/White type in anticipation of replacing him.

If you have listened to some of the Ex-Pats podcasts episode then you will know that White was a completely mess when he arrived in Foxboro to the point where players didn't think he'd ever play a single snap in the league. Fears coached him up to where he is now which tells you everything you need to know about how interchangeable the majority of those flexbacks are that have come into NE and left after their rookie contract.

He will be gone in FA next year.

supafly · Feb 10, 2017

chasa said:
my point being everyone that bill lets walk tends to enter witness protection in terms of production.

Branchs career nose dived after he left, Asante samuel, pretty sure he didn't do anything of note. Ty law? nadda, Lawyer Milloy? nothing. Drew bledsoe? Thanks for the wins vs the bills. Revis? one foot into retirement, Moss? hit two team after he left and did nothing with either. Chandler jones had a quiet season in Arizona, and jamie collins had seemingly no impact on a 1-15 browns team.

Suggesting that wilfork was the wrong choice over Seymour is silly, as Wilfork is a future hall of fame nose tackle, and Seymour was out of the league in 2012 5 years before wilfork was done(2 of which were for another team.)

Seymour was a great player, but he was past his prime. For seymour we got a #1 which via wheeling and dealing turned into: Chandler jones, Shane vereen, and Donta Hightower.

So yeah maybe our pass rush wasn't top tier for a little bit, but the players it brought in resulted in 2 more titles.

The only time a player has left and it's caused issues is when welker took less money to go to the broncos, and then cheap shotted out #1CB out of the game. I'd hardly put the blame on bill there.

No one should be placing blame on Belichick, chasa. I'm actually attempting to praise him for sticking to his value system. I'm also pointing out that players come and go all the time, so it's obviously possible that could happen to HT, especially since the market may dictate a higher cost than what Belichick feels is reasonable. Anyone arguing with that is simply attempting to fool themselves.

Outside of that, I'm not really sure what it is that you take issue with me saying?

luuked · Feb 10, 2017

patfanken said:
OL - It is 2 to 3 years too early to think about using a high pick on a OLman. Solder had a bad GAME, not a bad year, quite the opposite. Mason was solid all year, but if we need a more physical OG, then don't forget about Tre Jackson. I think that will be an interesting competition if he can come back healthy.

If there is a chance to get a player with who needs some work but might have a similar ceiling as Solder then I don't see anything wrong with drafting him and letting him learn the ropes while Nate is still here. He will be on his final contract year next year with a cap hit of 10m. LT are expensive and if you can transition without a huge falloff it's a giant pile of cash you save.

patfanken said:
I expect Long to retire.

He already announced he will not retire.

patfanken said:
I think Harmon is eminately replaceable. It could be as easy as Richardson, or Ebner, or someone in FA or the draft. Either way Chung and Dev will be the starters.

You are severely undervaluing Harmon's importance. Ebner hasn't developed further in over 5 years and will still have the same limitations as he always had when used as safety. Given the amount of nickel that we played in the last two years I am happy that we didn't have to use him as the "star" DB anymore like 3 years ago. In any case, taking Harmon away will put a lot of pressure on whoever we draft/bring in because a lot of nickel sets are (3S/2CB) looks because a lot of scheme and variability relies on that second FS.

patfanken said:
LB- I think Van Noy is a great athlete, but without any real football instincts. He's a tease, who makes some good plays but isn't consistent enough. We need an upgrade at the position, unless BB feels he can improve with a full season in the program. Brown obviously has great instincts but not the size. I think we have that skill set on the roster in Roberts. It just needs to get more experience. Besides, I'd like to think Mingo can be developed into something more than ST's player.

In my eyes the McClellin experiment failed and -- unless a switch goes on miraculously -- he will be cut at some point next summer. Only around 800k in dead money. I think LB will be a big construction site in this upcoming season.

Lombardi said something interesting in a recent podcast. He thinks that BB will do a rebuild on some of the aspects of the defense this year so he expects the 2017 to be worse than our 2016 team but then adds that the 2018 team will be even better because of it.

IllegalContact · Feb 10, 2017

supafly said:
Again, we know there have been players that Belichick has wanted to retain, but couldn't justify paying more than his value system would allow. He's openly admitted such. Last year with Hicks was a prime example of that, and we had the cap money available (still do) all season long. They could've kept him here if they could've agreed to a better deal. Unfortunately, another team stepped in and offered more money. Belichick didn't see the value there.

Why would anyone argue or disagree that we all haven't watched this happen during just about every single free agency period? Your suggestion that Belichick has passed on bringing in certain big name players in free agency or allowed others to take a better offer because "he doesn't want them" is ludicrous.

In your argument, I recently passed on the car that I could afford with money to spare because "I didn't want it." That's not true. I wanted it but just couldn't work out good value in our negotiations, so I had to walk away. This is something that we see with all teams every single year. They lose their own solid players and they pass on others...even though they have available cap room. It doesn't mean they wouldn't have liked to keep (or sign) those players.

I'm sure Belichick "wanted" Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald as a downfield threat, but he wasn't going to hand them blank checks, even though we had the cap space and potential to bring them here. C'mon, man. Your argument is not only weak, it's bizarre.

when someone is not wanted at the market price, then they're not wanted

no 2 ways about it.......some people will take less money, but they, too were not wanted at the market price

you did not want the car at the price it was being sold for, there for you did not want it

luuked · Feb 10, 2017

supafly said:
I'm also pointing out that players come and go all the time, so it's obviously possible that could happen to HT, especially since the market may dictate a higher cost than what Belichick feels is reasonable. Anyone arguing with that is simply attempting to fool themselves.

My issue with all those "someone will overpay him"/"the market, the market" points is that they don't matter in this situation because HT can be franchised for this year. This gives enough time to try to maybe find a compromise longterm solution but at the same time also adds one more year to facilitate a more smooth transition away from him.

Yes, it might be costly but at the same time you retain a lot of flexibility because it's only a one year thing. If you let him walk you essentially put yourself under pressure to find one impact player either in FA or via the draft. Suddenly your needs dictate your behaviour and not value. That doesn't sound much like a BB move to me.

supafly · Feb 10, 2017

luuked said:
My issue with all those "someone will overpay him"/"the market, the market" points is that they don't matter in this situation because HT can be franchised for this year. This gives enough time to try to maybe find a compromise longterm solution but at the same time also adds one more year to facilitate a more smooth transition away from him.

Yes, it might be costly but at the same time you retain a lot of flexibility because it's only a one year thing. If you let him walk you essentially put yourself under pressure to find one impact player either in FA or via the draft. Suddenly your needs dictate your behaviour and not value. That doesn't sound much like a BB move to me.

My opinion is that he will be franchised as well, but my point still stands.

It's obviously possible that Belichick won't agree with the same type of long term deal that another team may offer.

luuked · Feb 10, 2017

supafly said:
My opinion is that he will be franchised as well, but my point still stands.

It's obviously possible that Belichick won't agree with the same type of long term deal that another team may offer.

Yes but being forced to find a replacement that has close to the same impact as High but is substantially cheaper might be more risky than paying him the franchise tag. Everyone thinks of it as this big number (~15m) but if you are prepared to give him a contract that pays 12,5-13m anyway, then is it really that much more money for that one year ?

I am looking at it from the risk/value perspective and don't really see them letting him leave without tagging. The tag gives them 2 FA periods and 2 drafts to do that.

Ring 6 · Feb 10, 2017

luuked said:
If you have listened to some of the Ex-Pats podcasts episode then you will know that White was a completely mess when he arrived in Foxboro to the point where players didn't think he'd ever play a single snap in the league. Fears coached him up to where he is now which tells you everything you need to know about how interchangeable the majority of those flexbacks are that have come into NE and left after their rookie contract.

He will be gone in FA next year.

No the story I have heard is that white came in looking like a stud then they put pads on and he came down to earth.

supafly · Feb 10, 2017

IllegalContact said:
when someone is not wanted at the market price, then they're not wanted

no 2 ways about it.......some people will take less money, but they, too were not wanted at the market price

you did not want the car at the price it was being sold for, there for you did not want it

I wanted the car very badly, and still do, but there were better deals involved with other cars, so I was forced to pass.

This example would ring true even more, if for example, I wanted the car, put an offer on it, then someone else came along and outbid me. That wouldn't have meant that "I didn't want the car" as you're claiming. It would mean that I didn't agree with the current market value and/or that someone else chose to overpay.

It's part of being an adult and managing finances properly. With Belichick, we have a good decision maker with a proven track record. I have money available on my credit cards right now and have plenty of things that "I want," but it doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and overpay to get them, nor should I.

Let me guess your response: "then you never really wanted it to begin with." Am I close?

luuked · Feb 10, 2017

AndyJohnson said:
No the story I have heard is that white came in looking like a stud then they put pads on and he came down to earth.

Listen to the current episode of the Ex-Pats Podcast.. Mayo goes into it quite a bit.. according to that White looked like a total wreck..

EDIT: audioBoom / 23: Super Bowl for the ages; Atlanta play calling; Gronk’s contract

supafly · Feb 10, 2017

luuked said:
Yes but being forced to find a replacement that has close to the same impact as High but is substantially cheaper might be more risky than paying him the franchise tag. Everyone thinks of it as this big number (~15m) but if you are prepared to give him a contract that pays 12,5-13m anyway, then is it really that much more money for that one year ?

I am looking at it from the risk/value perspective and don't really see them letting him leave without tagging. The tag gives them 2 FA periods and 2 drafts to do that.

I agree with you that he may need to overpay a bit this year due to a variety of reasons, so I feel you on the tag and agree that it's a no-brainer, but I can't get behind the idea that he'll sign him to a longer term deal next year simply due to available cap space, that's all.

luuked · Feb 10, 2017

supafly said:
I agree with you that he may need to overpay a bit this year due to a variety of reasons, so I feel you on the tag and agree that it's a no-brainer, but I can't get behind the idea that he'll sign him to a longer term deal next year simply due to available cap space, that's all.

If no long term extension is reached this offseason after he is tagged, he is gone for sure and might even not be on the team for long if someone starts to emerge. No question.

Deus Irae · Feb 10, 2017

If Poe springs loose from K.C., I'd hope that BB would at least take a serious look at him as an option.

50-yard-line · Feb 10, 2017

Deus Irae said:
If Poe springs loose from K.C., I'd hope that BB would at least take a serious look at him as an option.

I agree.

How do you feel about Campbell?

50-yard-line · Feb 10, 2017

luuked said:
If no long term extension is reached this offseason after he is tagged, he is gone for sure and might even not be on the team for long if someone starts to emerge. No question.

Just some information: I found this promising from Hightower:

Dont'a Hightower: Latest News, Rumors and Speculation on Free-Agent LB

"I'd like to think [it's a good sign the Patriots want to keep me]," Hightower said. "But, again, guys can get put out and traded or whatever. I'm just trying to go along with the ride right now and enjoy that Super Bowl victory. I'm sure in a couple weeks all that free-agency stuff will pick up, and I'll handle that whenever that comes."

I think he wants to stay. And I think they want to keep him.

Bourne Again Christian · Feb 10, 2017

Resign Hightower and Blount
Franchise Bennett
Offer Harmon good money but he deserves to be a starter.
However I think Logan Ryan is going to get PAID

Don Kipines · Feb 10, 2017

Isn't Michael Thomas of the Dolphins a free agent? I'd be shocked if they don't go after him. He always hurts us, plays all special teams units and defense, and has been praised by Pats players and coaches. If any non-rookie replaces Harmon, he'd be my guess.

PatsFanInVa · Feb 10, 2017

Didn't read the thread, but somebody catch me up. Do we "need" a "True #1 receiver" who can "take the top off a defense" or "stretch the field" yet?

Do we need a tall cornerback with elite ball skills?

Has Adrian Peterson been compared to Corey Dillon?

Just axin'.

I become nothing but a troll most off-seasons... the sad truth of being a Patriots fan is, I don't begrudge you guys any claim of football knowledge, but you have less than the Foxborough brain trust... the guy above me talking "value" is about as close as I come to rooting for any given off-season move. BB should make the move he makes! d%#*!@t Bill, make the call you make so I can trust it!

Like I said, sad. If I were a Redskins fan I'd feel totally vindicated in claiming I knew better than the front office.

Comes with the territory.

I dunno I might "play" later, and I am not trying to rain on the parade or anything, to each his own.

But who are we kidding at this point? Best coach ever vs. us. Sucks.

Ochmed Jones · Feb 11, 2017

Don Kipines said:
Isn't Michael Thomas of the Dolphins a free agent? I'd be shocked if they don't go after him. He always hurts us, plays all special teams units and defense, and has been praised by Pats players and coaches. If any non-rookie replaces Harmon, he'd be my guess.

Bb has a history of signing guys from other teams within our division.

I think André branch of Miami is a free agent as well. If so, I could see bb being interested in him.

Offseason Free Agents thread....

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