How about a position by position breakdown of why the defense is struggling?

I have sort of accepted that we have an average D.. maybe even a below average D considering the offenses the Pats have played.

I am more concerned about Gronk and the offense, they haven't looked great for 3 weeks in a row. Seattle was tough because they have a good D, but they looked sloppy against SF and NYJ. Our best D is a great Offense. Thats how we are gonna have to win it this year.

skinnydog said:

Yes, I get that it's just their predominant 1 gap scheme explains why the are an attacking style of defense overall as compared to a 2 gap scheme even without blitzing.

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Exactly. And I think anyone who watches the games knows that their Defensive Line over the past 5 years has been one of the best

fightingirish595 said:

which opens up a free runner if you choose to be agressive. If you go empty with your tight end and running back out there, there probably going to keep their linebackers out there. (some of the best in the league in coverage) or There obviously going to bring in more DBs To counter that if you have 4 or 5 on the field

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Well if I knew that they were going to rush four all day long and drop the rest into coverage, I'd just run stacks and trips at them, rub routes, etc., or release one or two more out of T formation so that by the time they reach the LOS, they have a full head of speed.

Eventually someone will get open.

I'll just stand tall in the pocket or move up if I lose my edge protection because I know nobody else is free and coming for me.

skinnydog said:

The Seahawks seem to prioritize getting into the backfield and disrupting running plays or getting after the QB. That seems to be their baseline d-line philosophy. The play a lot of 1 gap technique in which the d-lineman has responsibility for the gap in front of him and it results in a more penetrating style whether run or pass. The mix thing up but basically a lot of 4-3 under I think it is called. In contrast the Pats seem to play a lot more 2 gap technique. It's a read and react style that can also be effective, but it not what I would call an aggressive style of play. With a 1 gap style you are basically attacking at the snap and with a 2 gap there is a necessary hesitation and often you job is not to penetrate at all but to tie op the blocker in front of you and allow a linebacker to read the play and flow to the ball. Either way by the time you read that it's a pass then you are already tied up with a blocker so the the pressure on the QB takes longer to develop.

I thought the pats were moving in the direction of a 4-3 penetrating style a couple of years ago and thought the Easley pick was representative of a shift in philosophy. I think they have shifted back to a more read and react base style of defense.

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Yes, they do one-gap all the time, and often (especially with Bennett) they win the battle and this gives the appearance that they're overtly aggressive. But if you go strictly by numbers, you'd realize that they're deceptively aggressive- rushing 4 is being conservative, no matter how much one wants to spin it. Occasionally they'll rush 5, and that's where they're really good at forcing something to happen.

We do two-gap and that's definitely not aggressive, it's as you say, read and react. The DL's job is to tie up the line and let the LB make the plays, and many times, to the untrained eye, this makes it look like we have a bunch of lousy linemen.

But look at it this way- the deficiency with Seattle's philosophy is that it often results in overpursuit where players find themselves out of play, or are ridden out. That's where things become a gamble. We are risk-adverse and obviously that's a lot less sexy, but we give up a lot less big plays- in 11 games (uggghh, already??) we've given up just two passes of 40+ yards, IIRC.

But what makes both Seattle and NE very good is that they mix it up, always have and always will. No two series have the same looks and results. This forces constant adjustments throughout the game, and that one thing alone is why most teams can't keep up with us- they just don't have the mental aptitude, both players and coaches.

PP2 said:

Yes, they do one-gap all the time, and often (especially with Bennett) they win the battle and this gives the appearance that they're overtly aggressive. But if you go strictly by numbers, you'd realize that they're deceptively aggressive- rushing 4 is being conservative, no matter how much one wants to spin it. Occasionally they'll rush 5, and that's where they're really good at forcing something to happen.

We do two-gap and that's definitely not aggressive, it's as you say, read and react. The DL's job is to tie up the line and let the LB make the plays, and many times, to the untrained eye, this makes it look like we have a bunch of lousy linemen.

But look at it this way- the deficiency with Seattle's philosophy is that it often results in overpursuit where players find themselves out of play, or are ridden out. That's where things become a gamble. We are risk-adverse and obviously that's a lot less sexy, but we give up a lot less big plays- in 11 games (uggghh, already??) we've given up just two passes of 40+ yards, IIRC.

But what makes both Seattle and NE very good is that they mix it up, always have and always will. No two series have the same looks and results. This forces constant adjustments throughout the game, and that one thing alone is why most teams can't keep up with us- they just don't have the mental aptitude, both players and coaches.

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FYI on pass plays one gap or 2 gap is irrelevant.
When the ol steps backward you do not engage and 2 gap you rush the QB.

AndyJohnson said:

FYI on pass plays one gap or 2 gap is irrelevant.
When the ol steps backward you do not engage and 2 gap you rush the QB.

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Not always- sometimes we just stay in "contain" especially if there is a mobile QB who can make plays with his feet, but doesn't do well if he's forced to stay in the pocket.

PP2 said:

Not always- sometimes we just stay in "contain" especially if there is a mobile QB who can make plays with his feet, but doesn't do well if he's forced to stay in the pocket.

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Staying in lanes and spying a running QB is not 2 gapping. It's a different pass rush technique.

The Pats have the same philosophy they've always had. Belichick doesn't believe most teams can put together more long drives than his offense. So it's stop the run, tackle, and don't let passes over the top. They've done a good job against the run (I think they're 11th or 12th overall) and the passes they're giving up aren't big downfield shots (they're 11th in YPA against). It doesn't look pretty, but at the ends of games the other team always seems to have 15-20 points.

The defense has problems, but they also seem to have been a little unlucky lately. They're just missing on some interceptions and until last week they had some bad bounces. There's some upside left in young players like Flowers, Roberts, Rowe and Valentine. I think they can find another gear, and if the offense gets healthy, they should be just mediocre enough to get it done.

AndyJohnson said:

Staying in lanes and spying a running QB is not 2 gapping. It's a different pass rush technique.

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I'm talking about containment, when you just control your man, use him to "contain" the pocket, but not push him backwards too much, and be ready to shed to either side if the QB tries to make a play with his feet.

PP2 said:

Yes, they do one-gap all the time, and often (especially with Bennett) they win the battle and this gives the appearance that they're overtly aggressive. But if you go strictly by numbers, you'd realize that they're deceptively aggressive- rushing 4 is being conservative, no matter how much one wants to spin it. Occasionally they'll rush 5, and that's where they're really good at forcing something to happen.

We do two-gap and that's definitely not aggressive, it's as you say, read and react. The DL's job is to tie up the line and let the LB make the plays, and many times, to the untrained eye, this makes it look like we have a bunch of lousy linemen.

But look at it this way- the deficiency with Seattle's philosophy is that it often results in overpursuit where players find themselves out of play, or are ridden out. That's where things become a gamble. We are risk-adverse and obviously that's a lot less sexy, but we give up a lot less big plays- in 11 games (uggghh, already??) we've given up just two passes of 40+ yards, IIRC.

But what makes both Seattle and NE very good is that they mix it up, always have and always will. No two series have the same looks and results. This forces constant adjustments throughout the game, and that one thing alone is why most teams can't keep up with us- they just don't have the mental aptitude, both players and coaches.

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I would agree with a lot of this but disagree that Seattle is deceptively aggressive. Playing an attacking penetrating 1 gap style is simply aggressive. Whether they rush 4 0r 5 in obvious passing downs does not change that. It is a style that has resulted in Seattle being in the top 5 or ten in both points allowed and yards allowed the last several years. Like any team injuries to key players can slow them down and losing Cam and Bennett each for a few games has slowed them down.

I thought the Pats were trending in the direction of a more aggressive defense in 14 and 15, but the seem to be going in the opposite direction this year.

AndyJohnson said:

FYI on pass plays one gap or 2 gap is irrelevant.
When the ol steps backward you do not engage and 2 gap you rush the QB.

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If all teams did on offense was to have the ol step back at the snap and pass block you would be right.

How does the defense only have five picks?

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skinnydog said:

I would agree with a lot of this but disagree that Seattle is deceptively aggressive. Playing an attacking penetrating 1 gap style is simply aggressive. Whether they rush 4 0r 5 in obvious passing downs does not change that. It is a style that has resulted in Seattle being in the top 5 or ten in both points allowed and yards allowed the last several years. Like any team injuries to key players can slow them down and losing Cam and Bennett each for a few games has slowed them down.

I thought the Pats were trending in the direction of a more aggressive defense in 14 and 15, but the seem to be going in the opposite direction this year.

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If you're comparing their DL to our DL, then yes, you're right, they are far more aggressive.

For me, if you're talking about an aggressive defense, what comes to mind is a Ryan type of defense when you frequently rush 5, occasionally 6 or 7 and every now and then, the jailbreak. It makes it pretty exciting to watch, it's sexy, and it's a huge gamble that gets the blood pumping, but they give up a big play as often as they don't. I'm not sure Seattle really belongs in this category.

PP2 said:

If you're comparing their DL to our DL, then yes, you're right, they are far more aggressive.

For me, if you're talking about an aggressive defense, what comes to mind is a Ryan type of defense when you frequently rush 5, occasionally 6 or 7 and every now and then, the jailbreak. It makes it pretty exciting to watch, it's sexy, and it's a huge gamble that gets the blood pumping, but they give up a big play as often as they don't. I'm not sure Seattle really belongs in this category.

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I guess we just have a small disagreement. I see both as being aggressive. It's just a matter of degree.

PP2 said:

Well if I knew that they were going to rush four all day long and drop the rest into coverage, I'd just run stacks and trips at them, rub routes, etc., or release one or two more out of T formation so that by the time they reach the LOS, they have a full head of speed.

Eventually someone will get open.

I'll just stand tall in the pocket or move up if I lose my edge protection because I know nobody else is free and coming for me.

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You just described most of the Patriots' defensive breakdowns over the last few games.