A Case For A Return To The 2-TE Offense

Gronkowski123 said:

what if the seahawks release jimmy graham??? any chance bill tries to sign him despite the major injury he suffered..just ease him back until midseason.

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He had the same injury as Jake Ballard, a torn patella. There is a very strong chance that he could miss the entire 2016 season given how late in the year this happened. Torn patellar ligaments are the worst (non-life altering) injuries for skill position players to suffer. Look at what happened to Ballard, Victor Cruz, and Jerod Mayo when they came back.

Basically, the odds he'll be anywhere close to himself at any point in 2016 are extremely low.

I always thought it was just a fortuitous situation of getting two tight ends from the draft that were so good.

I don't think strategically BB thought "I'll cherry pick two of the best tight ends in the league with the second and fourth round pick and then blow every one away, especially after I've drafted unspectacular TEs in the first round twice before."

BB lucked upon a treasure trove and took advantage. Not an easy thing to replicate. Just like counting on picking the GOAT QB in the sixth round next time they need a QB.

Just my opinion. All said, I'd love to see the 2 TE set again.

And, in the end, AH was a disastrous, unlucky pick once you take into account the whole human package.

Joey007 said:

Count me as one who's against reverting back to this offense. It always let us down in big games when we needed the big plays. I'd rather stick with what we had in 2014. Just get someone to replace Lafells production and I'm good to go.

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I don't necessarily agree with that. I think that is somewhat of a misperception that has become a reality. Because we won the Super Bowl last year, people look back on everything more favorably and when we lose people look back on everything less favorably.

Our offense was really struggling to move ball on Baltimore in 2014. We were down 28-14 before the trick formations and trick play with Edelman turned the momentum of that game around. The offense was struggling against Seattle for most of the game too until late in the fourth quarter. If the Seahawks don't blow that game at the goal line, i think you may look back less favorably at that offense. That's what people do with the 2007 offense. They say it wasn't clutch and was a front runner offense because we ultimately lost the SB, but in reality that offense was pretty clutch - came back to take lead late in SB, came back at home against Philly and on the road vs Baltimore and the Giants in regular season to preserve perfection.

I assume you're referencing 2010, 2011, and 2012?

2010 Jets loss i put on Brady. He was shook early on and started seeing ghosts. Those guys were rookies still coming into their own. We were overconfident after smacking them 45-3 a month earlier.

2011 Gronk played the Super Bowl on one foot. High ankle sprain against Baltimore relegated him to more of a decoy. I'm fully convinced if he's healthy, we win that SB game.

2012 Gronk reinjured his forearm against Houston and missed the rest of the playoffs. Baltimore was a good team that year, but if we have a healthy Gronk, i think we win that AFC title game.

The issue was more with the health of Gronk IMO, not necessarily the scheme. When everyone was healthy, the offense was almost unstoppable IMO.

Gronkowski123 said:

what if the seahawks release jimmy graham??? any chance bill tries to sign him despite the major injury he suffered..just ease him back until midseason.

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I can't see it. I think he'd command too much money on open market even off an injury. Just a year ago, he was considered the best TE in the league along with Gronk.

Personally, I've never been a fan of Graham. I'm a fan of the Miami Hurricanes and have felt the same way about him since he was in college. Soft. Not tough enough. He'll put up 200 yards against a bad team but be invisible in the big games.

tasmlab said:

I always thought it was just a fortuitous situation of getting two tight ends from the draft that were so good.

I don't think strategically BB thought "I'll cherry pick two of the best tight ends in the league with the second and fourth round pick and then blow every one away, especially after I've drafted unspectacular TEs in the first round twice before."

BB lucked upon a treasure trove and took advantage. Not an easy thing to replicate. Just like counting on picking the GOAT QB in the sixth round next time they need a QB.

Just my opinion. All said, I'd love to see the 2 TE set again.

And, in the end, AH was a disastrous, unlucky pick once you take into account the whole human package.

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I respectfully disagree that it wasn't strategically planned. I believe it was. I don't think Bill knew he was getting a potential Hall of Famer in Gronk, but i believe he strategically drafted both tight ends with the intent of changing the philosophy on offense.

I say this because of what i recall hearing in the Bill Belichick Football Life documentary done during the 09 season where he's talking to his staff about the lack of diversity in their offense after Moss and Welker.

Bedard wrote about this in the Globe:

Changes had to be made. In the record-setting 2007 season and in 2008, the Patriots were a receiver-driven offense because they had a lot of them, and they were good. By the end of ’09, things weren’t working out.

“Offensively, we’ve seen this twice now really,” Belichick told his assistant coaches after a Week 5 loss to the Broncos, which was captured in “A Football Life’’ on the NFL Network. “If you just take [Randy] Moss away in the deep part of the field, and get down on Welker, we’re done. We’re done. We can’t run the ball. We can’t throw it to anybody else. We’re done.”

Heading into 2010, things had to change. And who knew what the Patriots were going to be able to get out of Welker after ACL surgery?

Just like he does after every season, Belichick stood in front of his staff on that lousy January day and distributed the postseason tasks: study your group, and find out a way to get better. ASAP.

For quarterbacks coach Bill O’Brien, who was the de facto offensive coordinator, that meant a total retooling.

When it comes to coaching and philosophy, Belichick is not stuck in his ways. He is open to new ideas.

When Belichick and O’Brien were done dissecting the offense, they came to two conclusions:

The team had to get away from the spread-pass, shotgun-run game and get Brady back under center so they can run the ball better and set up the passing game through play-action.

And they had to get two, possibly three tight ends. Benjamin Watson and Chris Baker weren’t good enough.

The Patriots have always had two classes of tight ends. There is the traditional “Y,” whose job requirements read: 6 feet 5 inches or taller, at least 255 pounds, can run but absolutely must be a standout blocker. He has to be a viable receiver, but not a great one.

The “F” or flex tight end is 6-3 or taller, around 235 pounds, must be able to run and be an excellent pass receiver. Does not need to be a good blocker.

Everyone in the building agreed that Aaron Hernandez out of the University of Florida, where he did a little bit of everything, was the prototype “F.”

There was disagreement on the Y. Some were scared off by Rob Gronkowski’s back surgery in college. There also wasn’t agreement on whether Gronkowski as a rookie could think quick enough to play with Brady. But at least one person did have Gronkowski ranked as the No. 1 Y: Belichick.

Through skill and luck, the Patriots landed both in the draft.

It didn’t take the Patriots long to realize they had struck gold with both players. Not only were they the physical prototypes, but both had to be dragged off the practice field because they loved football so much.

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Rise of tight ends came as a result of 2009 - The Boston Globe

Gronkowski123 said:

what if the seahawks release jimmy graham??? any chance bill tries to sign him despite the major injury he suffered..just ease him back until midseason.

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I don't think Seattle will cut him, and even if they did I doubt the Pats could afford him, and even if they could I don't think BB would value him at the price he would have to pay to get him.

Off The Grid said:

Excellent Thread!!

For as long as I've been here, I've been pimping the "Double Tight End" Offense. Mind you...

If I had my druthers, I'd go with my patented Double WingBack Attack.

But "Double Tight End", as you describe it, works for me.

It's important, though, I believe, to distinguish between types of Tight Ends ~ so important that I've broken them down into subsets over the last few Years, to distinguish Skill Sets:

Tight Ends ~ 6.5/260 or so. Gronkowski is the ProtoType.
Flex Ends ~ 6.3/245 or so. Hernandez is the ProtoType.
WingBacks ~ 6.0/245 or so. Marcel Reece is the ProtoType.

Dwayne Allen is shorter than the ProtoType, but at 6.3/265 Pounds is a classic Tight End who strikes me as an impressive Blocker and indeed as an adept Receiver ~ for a Tight End.

Scott Chandler, at 6.7/260, is also what I characterize as a classic Tight End, with a Frame much like Jimmy Graham's, albeit spared the additional burden of Talent.

Timothy Wright, at 6.4/220, is a Split End ~ Randy Moss being the ProtoType ~ despite the obnoxious persistence of everyone calling'm a Tight End because the Bucs used him that way out'f desperation.

Ladarius Green is rather tall for my ProtoType, but at 6.6/240 is definitely a Flex End. His Production jumped in his 4th Year, he's always had sensational Straight Line Speed, and I believe that if the Lightning Bolts can't tie'm up, there's going to be a flat out Feeding Frenzy for this kid.

I can't say that I covet the guy, though: His Blocking sucks, and he's never struck me as much of a Route Runner. I believe that if he hits Free Agency, somebody's gonna go ApeShit over his combination of Straight Line Speed and Towering Height and throw 5 or 6 Million a Year at'm.

Hell, though...

At 6056 and a 4.56 40, maybe Run Like Hell and I'll Throw You The Ball is good enough!!

Of course we wouldn't even have this issue of replacing The Convict if we'd drafted TE Travis Kelce and XE Jordan Reed in 2013 as your devoted Servant suggested!!

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BillBelichickFan79 said:

Excellent insight as always, Grid. Those were two fantastic calls by you with Reed and Kelce. Two of the best tight ends in the league at the moment. I can only dream of how much I'd love this offense if we had one of those guys right now.

I agree on Green lacking in the blocking department and being raw as a route runner, yet I'm always blown away by his physical tools. But you make a good point that some team may throw crazy money as him based on those raw tools.

Dwayne Allen strikes me as a nice fit here. He's a good blocker and solid pass catching option with versatility who may be able to be had on a very team friendly deal. I see him being under valued on the open market due to some of his injury history and his lack of use in Indy. But I've always felt he could be a top 10 TE in this league.

Do you have any guys in mind that fit the flex TE mold like Hernandez did? Free agency, draft, trade? Those guys are so difficult to match up with, I would love to add one to this offense and bring it back to the Gronk-Hernandez days.

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Thank you kindly, Brother 79!! And I agree with you on Allen...It's certainly uncertain what he'll be able to command on The Market, as you note, but I really respect his Game, and it would be intriguing indeed to get a legitimate Dual Threat out there in a classic Double Tight End Set!!

It'd be different than Kong/Hernandez, to be certain...and I'd love to see it!!

I'm afraid that I haven't dug very deeply into the Draft, yet: Too focused on Survival, ere these last six months, to give it the time I soon intend to!! But things are coming around, and I have High Hopes that come the first week of March I'll be able to launch 8 Weeks of Draft Madness!!

Off The Grid said:

Thank you kindly, Brother 79!! And I agree with you on Allen...It's certainly uncertain what he'll be able to command on The Market, as you note, but I really respect his Game, and it would be intriguing indeed to get a legitimate Dual Threat out there in a classic Double Tight End Set!!

It'd be different than Kong/Hernandez, to be certain...and I'd love to see it!!

I'm afraid that I haven't dug very deeply into the Draft, yet: Too focused on Survival, ere these last six months, to give it the time I soon intend to!! But things are coming around, and I have High Hopes that come the first week of March I'll be able to launch 8 Weeks of Draft Madness!!

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Sounds good, look forward to discussing the draft with you. I typically dig in to the draft stuff after the combine.

The tight end from Florida is a guy that might work in our offense after a few years of coaching up. Other than him, not much in this draft as far as tight ends are concerned.

We should go back to have primarily a 2 TE set as soon as we are able to sign a TE with comparable skills to Hernandez. Until then, we are primarily a 3 WR team, or 2 WR and a primarily blocking TE.

Rob Housler would like to see what he contributes to this offense.

BillBelichickFan79 said:

I respectfully disagree that it wasn't strategically planned. I believe it was. I don't think Bill knew he was getting a potential Hall of Famer in Gronk, but i believe he strategically drafted both tight ends with the intent of changing the philosophy on offense.

I say this because of what i recall hearing in the Bill Belichick Football Life documentary done during the 09 season where he's talking to his staff about the lack of diversity in their offense after Moss and Welker.

Bedard wrote about this in the Globe:


Rise of tight ends came as a result of 2009 - The Boston Globe

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Interesting and good points. But, having the plan and having it work out seems rare with the draft. In 2013 they took two receivers in similar picks and it wasn't "rise of the receivers" and in 2015 they drafted two OL with similar picks and it wasn't "rise of the OL" (remarkably so).

It's great and wise to plan for the draft, but it seems more like counting cards than marksman shooting if that makes any sense. IMO.

Chandlers last 3 season in Buff were 655,571,497 yards
Hernandez last year was 483, and his 1st was 563. He did have 910 in his second year.

So in their final 3 seasons before this year, Hernandez had 1956 yards and Chandler 1723. That is 233 in 3 years, which works out to less than 5 yards per game.

But the real answer is Hernandez never really was a TE. He was an Hback, slot receiver, who was a good blocker for a WR and a horrible, incompetent one for a TE.
You aren't replacing him with Chandler, they are nothing like the same kind of player.
Chandlers #s were down this year because of his blocking. Williams took the job away because he can block.
It wasn't Hernandez' role, it was the second TE in an offense will real TEs and not an Hback/slot receiver masquerading as a TE.
I would say Amendola was the closing thing to Hernandez role in the passing game. Essentially if you want to consider it how did we replace Hernandez it was with Amendola and Williams.

The advantage Hernandez gave was that it created a mismatch. Teams want to consider him a TE in the running game and a WR in the passing game. Since teams play more nickel base now than ever, 2 TEs gives you an advantage in the running game but a disadvantage in the passing game, so a hybrid like Hernandez can block enough to help vs nickel.

The 'return of the 2 TE offense' only happens when you find a slot receiver in a TE size. Otherwise it will be mixed and matched with 3 WR.

tasmlab said:

Interesting and good points. But, having the plan and having it work out seems rare with the draft. In 2013 they took two receivers in similar picks and it wasn't "rise of the receivers" and in 2015 they drafted two OL with similar picks and it wasn't "rise of the OL" (remarkably so).

It's great and wise to plan for the draft, but it seems more like counting cards than marksman shooting if that makes any sense. IMO.

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Yes, in the end it's all about the execution of the plan. That ultimately determines whether it's a success or failure.

My main point is that I believe Bill drafted those two guys with the idea of philosophically changing the offense, as described in that article. I don't think he just took those guys just because they were the Best Player Available on his board at the given moment. If he didn't feel the draft had the type of players he was looking for, i think he would've made the changes through free agency or trade. Kind of like in 07 where he drastically altered the offensive philosophy and needed a bunch of receivers. With limited picks and a below average draft class, he brought in guys like Welker, Moss, Stallworth through trade and free agency.

I understand your logic with the comparison to 2013 drafting of Dobson and Boyce, but I don't consider that a case of trying to alter the philosophy of the offense. Those guys were drafted more as complements to the Gronk-Amendola-Edelman engine of the offense, in my opinion, in an effort to provide a semblance of an outside threat at WR. And when neither of those guys stepped up, whether due to injury or talent level, Lafell was brought in to be that guy.

AndyJohnson said:

The advantage Hernandez gave was that it created a mismatch. Teams want to consider him a TE in the running game and a WR in the passing game. Since teams play more nickel base now than ever, 2 TEs gives you an advantage in the running game but a disadvantage in the passing game, so a hybrid like Hernandez can block enough to help vs nickel.

The 'return of the 2 TE offense' only happens when you find a slot receiver in a TE size. Otherwise it will be mixed and matched with 3 WR.

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That was my main point. That's what made that offense so lethal and almost indefensible when everyone was healthy.

It helped us create favorable formation matchups that a QB like Brady easily diagnoses and takes advantage of.

You want to bring in your base defense to stop us from running? Okay, we'll flex Hernandez out or run play action and take advantage of your big slow run stuffing LB in coverage.

You want to bring in extra DB's to better guard against the pass? Okay, we'll keep the the tight ends in as blockers and run over your lighter defense.

If you have that two TE package in Denver, i think this offense is a lot more successful. I think we're undoubtedly able to run on their light 3 man frOnt, which would back the pass rush off a little, keeping it honest. Ware and Miller can't just tee off and rush upfield if we start gashing them on the ground, which in effect helps in giving Brady and company more time to operate in the passing game.

That's why I think a #2 TE has to be more prioritized than it seemingly has been. It's not easy to find the right fit, they don't grow on trees, but a guy like Chandler is not dynamic enough in the passing game. That's why we've been discussing some options like Dwayne Allen who is a solid all around TE (a better blocker than Hernandez but less dynamic pass catcher ) or Ladarius Green who is more of that receiver type who is hopefully just good enough as a blocker.

AndyJohnson said:

Chandlers last 3 season in Buff were 655,571,497 yards
Hernandez last year was 483, and his 1st was 563. He did have 910 in his second year.

So in their final 3 seasons before this year, Hernandez had 1956 yards and Chandler 1723. That is 233 in 3 years, which works out to less than 5 yards per game.

But the real answer is Hernandez never really was a TE. He was an Hback, slot receiver, who was a good blocker for a WR and a horrible, incompetent one for a TE.
You aren't replacing him with Chandler, they are nothing like the same kind of player.
Chandlers #s were down this year because of his blocking. Williams took the job away because he can block.
It wasn't Hernandez' role, it was the second TE in an offense will real TEs and not an Hback/slot receiver masquerading as a TE.
I would say Amendola was the closing thing to Hernandez role in the passing game. Essentially if you want to consider it how did we replace Hernandez it was with Amendola and Williams.

The advantage Hernandez gave was that it created a mismatch. Teams want to consider him a TE in the running game and a WR in the passing game. Since teams play more nickel base now than ever, 2 TEs gives you an advantage in the running game but a disadvantage in the passing game, so a hybrid like Hernandez can block enough to help vs nickel.

The 'return of the 2 TE offense' only happens when you find a slot receiver in a TE size. Otherwise it will be mixed and matched with 3 WR.

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Actually Andy, I would actually say if anyone replaced AH role in the passing game it was actually Edelman, where as Amendola replaced Welker..

Production wise, no it doesnt look like that, but Amendola strictly the slot guy like Welker was, where as Brady would move AH around similarly like he does with Edelman now. He'd use both on jet sweeps also.

BillBelichickFan79 said:

That was my main point. That's what made that offense so lethal and almost indefensible when everyone was healthy.

It helped us create favorable formation matchups that a QB like Brady easily diagnoses and takes advantage of.

You want to bring in your base defense to stop us from running? Okay, we'll flex Hernandez out or run play action and take advantage of your big slow run stuffing LB in coverage.

You want to bring in extra DB's to better guard against the pass? Okay, we'll keep the the tight ends in as blockers and run over your lighter defense.

If you have that two TE package in Denver, i think this offense is a lot more successful. I think we're undoubtedly able to run on their light 3 man frOnt, which would back the pass rush off a little, keeping it honest. Ware and Miller can't just tee off and rush upfield if we start gashing them on the ground, which in effect helps in giving Brady and company more time to operate in the passing game.

That's why I think a #2 TE has to be more prioritized than it seemingly has been. It's not easy to find the right fit, they don't grow on trees, but a guy like Chandler is not dynamic enough in the passing game. That's why we've been discussing some options like Dwayne Allen who is a solid all around TE (a better blocker than Hernandez but less dynamic pass catcher ) or Virgil Green who is more of that receiver type who is hopefully just good enough as a blocker.

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I gotta bring up his name again, but I think Jordan Cameron would thrive in this offense.

Looks like the Dolphins might cut him loose (cap casualty) He's coming off a down year production wise, but look at who his QB was?

Not to mention the Cleveland connection is there. I think that's a guy we can get at a relatively bargain price.

AzorianPats said:

I gotta bring up his name again, but I think Jordan Cameron would thrive in this offense.

Looks like the Dolphins might cut him loose (cap casualty) He's coming off a down year production wise, but look at who his QB was?

Not to mention the Cleveland connection is there. I think that's a guy we can get at a relatively bargain price.

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Excellent call, I must've missed the first time you said it. My apologies.

I agree, he's a great guy to look at for this offense, especially coming off a down year.

When he's healthy, he's a great pass catching tight end that creates mismatches like Hernandez, and he can chip in enough in the blocking game. I have always loved his skill set.

Like you said, with his concussion history and poor production last season, he could potentially be had at a bargain price. Definitely a guy that the Pats should be interested in.

BillBelichickFan79 said:

That was my main point. That's what made that offense so lethal and almost indefensible when everyone was healthy.

It helped us create favorable formation matchups that a QB like Brady easily diagnoses and takes advantage of.

You want to bring in your base defense to stop us from running? Okay, we'll flex Hernandez out or run play action and take advantage of your big slow run stuffing LB in coverage.

You want to bring in extra DB's to better guard against the pass? Okay, we'll keep the the tight ends in as blockers and run over your lighter defense.

If you have that two TE package in Denver, i think this offense is a lot more successful. I think we're undoubtedly able to run on their light 3 man frOnt, which would back the pass rush off a little, keeping it honest. Ware and Miller can't just tee off and rush upfield if we start gashing them on the ground, which in effect helps in giving Brady and company more time to operate in the passing game.

That's why I think a #2 TE has to be more prioritized than it seemingly has been. It's not easy to find the right fit, they don't grow on trees, but a guy like Chandler is not dynamic enough in the passing game. That's why we've been discussing some options like Dwayne Allen who is a solid all around TE (a better blocker than Hernandez but less dynamic pass catcher ) or Virgil Green who is more of that receiver type who is hopefully just good enough as a blocker.

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But the offense that creates the mismatch is not really 2 TEs, its a TE and a hybrid TE/SlotWR/HBack.
There are not many of those in the league.

AzorianPats said:

Actually Andy, I would actually say if anyone replaced AH role in the passing game it was actually Edelman, where as Amendola replaced Welker..

Production wise, no it doesnt look like that, but Amendola strictly the slot guy like Welker was, where as Brady would move AH around similarly like he does with Edelman now. He'd use both on jet sweeps also.

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There really was no 'replacing' going on just change.
When Welker was here the passing offense ran off of him. The scheme revolved around his role. (Post Moss)
Now it revolves around Gronk. The offense has changed and part of BBs approach is you just don't chase the past with replacements, you get the best players you can and adjust the scheme to them.

My point was that the 2nd TE or the Hernandez scheme is not half a TE and half a slot WR sharing the job.

AndyJohnson said:

But the offense that creates the mismatch is not really 2 TEs, its a TE and a hybrid TE/SlotWR/HBack.
There are not many of those in the league.

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Would Marcel Reece qualify?

I wanted the two TE O the day AH got arrested