Perspective - The dynasty keeps on...

PatsWickedPissah · May 21, 2015

You should post more

Deus Irae · May 21, 2015

Deus Irae said:
BadMoFo must be another one of those blindly defending Kraft. Go get him Joey! He's just tossing out a bunch of dislikes, and he's not even explaining them.

Oh, wait, you're tossing out the dislikes, too.

Must be more of that irony thing going around...

Oh, look, BadMoFo disliked the above post, too. I hope he's wearing his brown nose and huge shoes while doing it, because he's being an assclown..

Edit: and he disliked this post, too. Thanks for proving the point!

emoney_33 · May 21, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
The public accepted a lot of the Goldberg report.

They absolutely did not. The vast majority of the public doesn't even know it exists.

He could have appealed. Goodell said yesterday in talking about Brady that he WANTED TO HEAR FROM BRADY ABOUT ANY MISSING EVIDENCE, ANYTHING THAT WOULD HELP THEM GET IT RIGHT, ANYTHING LEFT OUT OF THE WELLS REPORT.

By what process does Kraft "appeal"?

Kraft and Brady are COMPLETELY different. Kraft is an owner (employer) and Brady is a player (employee, represented by the NFLPA).

What are you talking about? It was a properly enforced rule. There was no asterisk, you are lying now.

I'm talking entirely about public perception, facts have no relevance to public perception.

That is irrelevant to your claim that Spygate is an afterthought.

It has mostly died down. It gets brought up from time to time because well that's how people stay relevant, by arguing.

Where do I start?
31 owners cannot tell Kraft to take an unjust punishment and force him to do so.
He is not a voluntary member he owns the team.
How does trying it publicly hurt the Patriots? You are defending the right of the league to take away a first round pick and more for something we didn't do, because it would be painful for the other owners to base punishment on the truth? There is no logic in that.

He is a voluntary member of the National Football League. His team is irrelevant outside of the National Football League and if he took his team out of the National Football League, Belichick and Brady would stay with the National Football League.

I think your head is too far up Krafts *** for you to have perspective, but take a look around. 95% of fans hate Bob Kraft now.

I'm sure you think patsfans.com is indicative of the fanbase as a whole, but I promise you it is not. Gillette will, in fact, be packed again all season.

Every title is considered marred by cheating. That is on Kraft because both times he could have stood up for the team, and chose not to.

Typical, focus the blame internally, and then wonder why the boston media hates its own team. Fanatic to the extreme.

Please explain to me how the Patriots are damaged by that.

The Patriots cannot appeal, they can bring a federal lawsuit against the league. That would do absolutely no good whatsoever to the Patriots. I'm sure both the NFL and the Patriots have dirty laundry that they don't want aired and he has agreed as an owner to not sue the NFL. He has 0 chance of winning the lawsuit and guarantees nothing but harm to his business. But it would make AndyJohnson happy I guess.

Oh, so people who disagree with you should go away?

No, people who accuse others of being "lemmings" should stop being a "lemming" themselves.

I am very happy that this team has few fans like you.

What percentage of the fanbases do you think you know?

Ring 6 · May 21, 2015

emoney_33 said:
They absolutely did not. The vast majority of the public doesn't even know it exists.

Totally incorrect. The media has talked a lot about it, and they have changed their message (before changing it again after Kraft accepted guilt)

By what process does Kraft "appeal"?

Kraft had until today to appeal the ruling, just as Brady is doing.
He had the right to a hearing to present his case. He chose not to try.

Kraft and Brady are COMPLETELY different. Kraft is an owner (employer) and Brady is a player (employee, represented by the NFLPA).

It doesn't matter the appeal process is the same for player or team. They would be appealing the exact same facts. Goodell encouraged Brady to come in and present facts. Kraft had the same opportunity and decided that the rhetoric had gone on too long.

I'm talking entirely about public perception, facts have no relevance to public perception.

You are simply out of your mind.
I don't like a rule, which the league confirms is correctly called is not the same as
You cheated, and your owner knows it because he didn't even object to the largest penalty ever.

It has mostly died down. It gets brought up from time to time because well that's how people stay relevant, by arguing.

You couldn't be more wrong. I gave numerous examples.

He is a voluntary member of the National Football League. His team is irrelevant outside of the National Football League and if he took his team out of the National Football League, Belichick and Brady would stay with the National Football League.

this makes no sense, and has nothing to do with your claim that his team could be taken away from him if he does something the owners don't like.

I'm sure you think patsfans.com is indicative of the fanbase as a whole, but I promise you it is not. Gillette will, in fact, be packed again all season.

Of course it is indicative of the fanbase. But newspaper and internet polls also show tremendous dislike for Kraft.
People will not punish themeselves by denying themselves football. Why you think that endorses Krafts weak lack of backbone is beyond me.

Typical, focus the blame internally, and then wonder why the boston media hates its own team. Fanatic to the extreme.

Where should the blame be? The Patriots were accused of cheating and the man who has the decision making power for the team chose to ACCEPT THE GUILT WITHOUT APPEAL.

The Patriots cannot appeal,

Yes they can. Now that you know this fact, how much does that change your opinions that you have been spewing?
Now that you know Kraft ACCEPTED GUILT AND REFUSED TO APPEAL THE FINDING OR PENALTY how do you feel?

they can bring a federal lawsuit against the league. That would do absolutely no good whatsoever to the Patriots.

Probably true, but I haven't seen anyone call for this, at least not before having the appeal process play out.

I'm sure both the NFL and the Patriots have dirty laundry that they don't want aired and he has agreed as an owner to not sue the NFL. He has 0 chance of winning the lawsuit and guarantees nothing but harm to his business. But it would make AndyJohnson happy I guess.

So if both sides stand to lose in a dispute, why did Kraft take every penalty without objection and get nothing in return?

A lawsuit would not harm his business win or lose. It would help in the area of rallying support from the fans.
But AndyJohnson has not said one single time that Kraft should sue the NFL right now. So how that would make me happy is something only you must know.

No, people who accuse others of being "lemmings" should stop being a "lemming" themselves.

You are the one making things up to help you live with what the guy you wish had character did.

What percentage of the fanbases do you think you know?

No clue,and it doesn't matter.

fair catch fryar · May 21, 2015

Deus Irae said:
Oh, look, BadMoFo disliked the above post, too. I hope he's wearing his brown nose and huge shoes while doing it, because he's being an assclown..

Edit: and he disliked this post, too. Thanks for proving the point!

He has disliked several of my posts as well. He should change his name to Badassclown.

emoney_33 · May 21, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
this makes no sense, and has nothing to do with your claim that his team could be taken away from him if he does something the owners don't like.

The NFL is an association of 32 businesses that elect league executives to run and rule all league matters. The owners of the businesses willingly give the commissioner full power over these matters. The league on behalf of the owners bargain with the players and come up with a collective agreement on avenues to settle disputes between league and player.

Among the powers of the commissioner, he has the power to recommend to the executive committee that a franchise be forfeited or cancelled. You don't have any inherent right to be part of the NFL and if you think Kraft's business is worth more than the other 31 combined then you are out of your mind. No matter how much Kraft wants to fight this, it doesn't make sense to.

Finally, any owner of a business would be a complete moron to do things that would risk their business based on emotions. People who don't like the reality of business, aren't in business. Let's stop pretending that reality doesn't exist.

Of course it is indicative of the fanbase. But newspaper and internet polls also show tremendous dislike for Kraft.

Emotional polls being voted on by a tiny minority who are paying close attention to this.

People will not punish themeselves by denying themselves football. Why you think that endorses Krafts weak lack of backbone is beyond me.

So Kraft has a lack of backbone because he won't risk his business, but fans don't have a lack of backbone when they won't even give up a small amount of entertainment for what "they believe in"? Get real.

Where should the blame be? The Patriots were accused of cheating and the man who has the decision making power for the team chose to ACCEPT THE GUILT WITHOUT APPEAL.

It's clearly with the NFL and the Colts. He didn't accept guilt, he accepted REALITY. It's in the NFL bylaws that he cannot sue. But screw everything, blow up the NFL because they accused Brady of cheating!

Perspective, you lack it.

Yes they can. Now that you know this fact, how much does that change your opinions that you have been spewing?

No, they cannot, only Brady's suspension can be appealed.

Probably true, but I haven't seen anyone call for this, at least not before having the appeal process play out.

There is no appeals process for this...

A lawsuit would not harm his business win or lose. It would help in the area of rallying support from the fans.

It violates the NFL bylaws and would likely result in him losing the franchise. But yeah let's pretend the world revolves around you and your fandom.

Nunchucks · May 21, 2015

Your arguments are based on the faulty assumption that Kraft is risking his business by fighting Goodell or even suing the NFL.

As Al Davis proved, it is not the case.

Deus Irae · May 21, 2015

emoney_33 said:
It violates the NFL bylaws and would likely result in him losing the franchise. But yeah let's pretend the world revolves around you and your fandom.

Mcp1982 · May 21, 2015

emoney_33 said:
Forgive me, but this forum is acting like a spoiled child these last couple of days.

We are fans of the greatest franchise in the last 2 decades, 4 rings, 6 superbowls. Envy is guaranteed, no matter what happens to the team, the rest of the public will try to bring us down while we are in the midst of our run. Legacies gain their popularity and favorability when they are gone, not before, not during. We've heard it from the beginning and it only gets worse the more you win.

Belichick will go down as the best, Brady will go down as the best, this dynasty will go down as the best. How often do you hear about the tuck rule today? Barely, if at all. Spygate has mostly died down as well. Sure a jackal here and there will accuse the team of cheating and bring it up, but by and large, the media still acknowledge the Patriots as the one of the absolute best.

No matter what the true intentions of the NFL are with their over-the-top treatment of the Patriots, be-it parity, or facade, or imagery, or ignorance, or giving other fanbases hope, or whatever, Kraft has never done anything that would suggest he does not care about his organization. No matter how much you don't like it, he is indeed only 1/32 (3.125 %) and he doesn't have nearly as much power over the NFL as you wish he did. 31 other teams also only care about their own franchises, and there is no way they are going to give a **** or support a cause when the best-of-the-best gets a little flack thrown at them. You can tell he cared as he spoke emotionally several times about this, but ultimately he simply had to analyze the entire situation and decide on the best course of action. He is a smart man, he is surrounded by smart people, he made the right decision for the franchise.

He cannot sue the NFL, he would never win, and there would be a far better chance of getting himself ousted and be forced to sell the team before he would achieve any good for the Patriots in any way. The path that you demand is simply not a good path, it may appease your irrational emotions in the moment, but it would damage the Patriots on and off the field. If you would rather that Kraft lose his team than put up with a little BS that doesn't impact your livelihood in any way, well it says a whole lot more about you than it does Kraft.

Beyond that, whether they agree or disagree, on a case-by-case basis, with the decisions of the commissioner, so long as that commissioner can show that he is growing the league, as long as the NFL brand grows in popularity and profitability, he will be supported by the business owners. There are no teams without the NFL, there is no BB without the NFL, there is no Brady without the NFL, they are all part of the NFL, and ultimately they all need the NFL more than the NFL needs any one of them. That's the harsh reality.

And remember, the loss of picks only further cements this dynasty and the legacy of the greatest coach and QB that will ever live.

Brady will not miss a game, the NFLPA will win that easily. The picks hurt but they can be overcome, just consider it the same as a freak injury to lose a player. The narrative of deflategate will change over time. The NFL will do its "due diligence" on "studying" air pressure, which is simply a show for the other fanbases. They will guide the public to come to the conclusion on their own that PSI is silly to try to regulate, but they can't just come out and say "whoops, yeah we didn't realize air pressure behaved this way" because the only thing everyone else would hear is that the league cheats for the Patriots. As hard as it is to believe, other fans actually think the Patriots get favorable treatment, and the NFL must take into consideration the dynamics of ALL.

When you're at the top, you have to be able to take everyone's punches, because everyone will be swinging. Enjoy being at the top, Kraft loves this team, he will always love this team, and all the legacies will survive and stand on their own in time. Personally I'm just going to keep enjoying being a fan of the 4-time champs, and look forward to this versatile defense that the mastermind is building, it should have a nice 3-4 year window of dominance if all goes well, and that will send Brady out on top.

Even if somehow, some way, Brady can't beat this suspension this year. We will survive, we will win games, we will keep on keeping on. It's easier to win with the GOAT but it is not impossible to win without the GOAT. Remember '08? Ultimately he'll be on that field, game 1 or game 5, and he's going to show the league a thing or two about the irrelevancy of PSI. Take our picks, call us cheaters, suspend our QB, mock our team, we will do what we always do, take it out on the field. Pats nation unite! Kraft will give the team all the support and anything it needs to win on the field every year, not just this year, like he has always done.

Good point on the draft pick, imagine being the Jags and losing your #3 overall pick the FIRST day of mini-camps and them having to guarantee him $21mm!

emoney_33 · May 21, 2015

Nunchucks said:
Your arguments are based on the faulty assumption that Kraft is risking his business by fighting Goodell or even suing the NFL.

As Al Davis proved, it is not the case.

Yes let's compare the decades old fued of franchise location to the current punishment of taking 2 draft picks that is within the stated powers of the commissioner.

Nunchucks · May 21, 2015

emoney_33 said:
Yes let's compare the decades old fued of franchise location to the current punishment of taking 2 draft picks that is within the stated powers of the commissioner.

Your hyperbole did not counter my point.

emoney_33 · May 21, 2015

Nunchucks said:
Your hyperbole did not counter my point.

You don't have a point, the bylaws prohibit member clubs from suing. Al Davis brought an anti-trust lawsuit, what the hell is Kraft going to sue about? Yeah let's violate the bylaws and sue because we don't like the punishment that we expressly granted the commissioner power to levy. It makes no sense.

IllegalContact · May 21, 2015

I have to think about this

Nunchucks · May 21, 2015

emoney_33 said:
You don't have a point, the bylaws prohibit member clubs from suing. Al Davis brought an anti-trust lawsuit, what the hell is Kraft going to sue about? Yeah let's violate the bylaws and sue because we don't like the punishment that we expressly granted the commissioner power to levy. It makes no sense.

The commissioner cannot arbitrarily levy punishment to a franchise without proof of wrong doing.

emoney_33 · May 21, 2015

Nunchucks said:
The commissioner cannot arbitrarily levy punishment to a franchise without proof of wrong doing.

Actually, the bylaws **specifically** grant him the ultimate authority to decide guilt and issue the punishments he has given. This is not a court of law.

Ring 6 · May 21, 2015

emoney_33 said:
The NFL is an association of 32 businesses that elect league executives to run and rule all league matters. The owners of the businesses willingly give the commissioner full power over these matters. The league on behalf of the owners bargain with the players and come up with a collective agreement on avenues to settle disputes between league and player.

Does the fact that you keep changing the subject mean you know I am right?

Among the powers of the commissioner, he has the power to recommend to the executive committee that a franchise be forfeited or cancelled.

Among the powers of the franchises are the right to appeal a judgment by the Commissioner.

Please, please tell me that you really think that Roger Goodell could take the franchise away from Kraft because he challenged his ruling in the league or in court. Then I can dismiss any opinion you have as moronic and be done with you.

You don't have any inherent right to be part of the NFL and if you think Kraft's business is worth more than the other 31 combined then you are out of your mind. No matter how much Kraft wants to fight this, it doesn't make sense to.

He has nothing to lose and everything to gain, from the perspective of the franchise. Sadly that is not his concern.

Finally, any owner of a business would be a complete moron to do things that would risk their business based on emotions. People who don't like the reality of business, aren't in business. Let's stop pretending that reality doesn't exist.

Its not about emotion, its about protecting his brand. Businesses routinely sue and spend tons of money to protect their reputation and brand.

Emotional polls being voted on by a tiny minority who are paying close attention to this.

The fan base.

So Kraft has a lack of backbone because he won't risk his business, but fans don't have a lack of backbone when they won't even give up a small amount of entertainment for what "they believe in"? Get real.

Strawman after strawman with you.
Kraft does not have to risk his business to present an appeal to the decision.
What are you jobbing fans for now?

It's clearly with the NFL and the Colts. He didn't accept guilt, he accepted REALITY. It's in the NFL bylaws that he cannot sue. But screw everything, blow up the NFL because they accused Brady of cheating!

The Colts and the NFL are to blame? Hurry tell Kraft so he can do something about it.

I will say this once more, and if you keep creating strawman arguments, i and done with you.

I have not said sue, I have not said blow up the NFL.
I have said appeal and prove that the Wells report is wrong and prove their innocence.

Stop arguing about suing when I have never brought it up.

Perspective, you lack it.

I expect the owner of the team to take it seriously when his team is accused of cheating. This one chose to accept the findings and not appeal.

No, they cannot, only Brady's suspension can be appealed.

There is no appeals process for this...

Are you trying to set a record for how many times you can be wrong?

It violates the NFL bylaws and would likely result in him losing the franchise. But yeah let's pretend the world revolves around you and your fandom.

You either know this is wrong or you are a moron. Either way, you are now losing touch with reality.

emoney_33 · May 21, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
Does the fact that you keep changing the subject mean you know I am right?

I haven't changed the subject.

Among the powers of the franchises are the right to appeal a judgment by the Commissioner.

I have the NFL bylaws in front of me, you keep claiming **** that isn't there.

Please, please tell me that you really think that Roger Goodell could take the franchise away from Kraft because he challenged his ruling in the league or in court. Then I can dismiss any opinion you have as moronic and be done with you.

I said he has that POWER, which is a fact. You are just being emotional and demanding that everything would work out exactly how you think it could, even though you can't even produce to me where the NFL laws state that a franchise can appeal this discipline.

He has nothing to lose and everything to gain, from the perspective of the franchise. Sadly that is not his concern.

Because AndyJohnson said so.

Its not about emotion, its about protecting his brand. Businesses routinely sue and spend tons of money to protect their reputation and brand.

So now your claim is that he's a bad businessman?

I have not said sue, I have not said blow up the NFL.
I have said appeal and prove that the Wells report is wrong and prove their innocence.

So do something that doesn't exist? There is an appeals process for player suspensions, there is NOT an appeals process for discipline to a member club under section 8.13 - Disciplinary Powers of the Commissioner.

Stop arguing about suing when I have never brought it up.

You don't understand that suing is the ONLY way to dispute this. It's like telling someone to go to the HR department at a company that has no HR department.[/quote]

Ring 6 · May 21, 2015

emoney_33 said:
No, they cannot, only Brady's suspension can be appealed.
There is no appeals process for this...

.

Per a source with knowledge of the situation, the Patriots haven’t decided whether to challenge the $1 million fine and two lost draft picks, a first-rounder in 2016 and a fourth-rounder in 2017. They have until next Thursday, May 21, to decide whether to file an appeal.

Like Brady’s appeal, a review of the discipline would go to Commissioner Roger Goodell or his designee.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/15/patriots-havent-decided-whether-to-appeal/

Please describe how the fact that, yes Kraft could appeal changes the pages of blubbering you have done about how he did everything he could.

patsfaninpa · May 21, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
Per a source with knowledge of the situation, the Patriots haven’t decided whether to challenge the $1 million fine and two lost draft picks, a first-rounder in 2016 and a fourth-rounder in 2017. They have until next Thursday, May 21, to decide whether to file an appeal.

Like Brady’s appeal, a review of the discipline would go to Commissioner Roger Goodell or his designee.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/15/patriots-havent-decided-whether-to-appeal/

Please describe how the fact that, yes Kraft could appeal changes the pages of blubbering you have done about how he did everything he could.

You've got all the answers. What do you think Goodell told Kraft on Sunday? Ya know Bob, I'll be hearing your appeal if you make one. The other owners want this to stick. Not one owner has publicly backed Kraft. How would that appeal have gone?

BradyFTW! · May 21, 2015

patsfaninpa said:
You've got all the answers. What do you think Goodell told Kraft on Sunday? Ya know Bob, I'll be hearing your appeal if you make one. The other owners want this to stick. Not one owner has publicly backed Kraft. How would that appeal have gone?

Knowing that you're going to lose is no excuse not to appeal.

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