Sign the Beast LXIX: La'el Collins - do the Pats have a shot if he is cleared?

He would be a great addition- my wife and I are LSU fans (she is from LA and went to LSU) and we go to about three games each year. Collins was a mauler on the OL and plays with a nasty streak. It was surprising to hear his name linked to this because the coaches rave about what a great kid he is.

SlowGettingUp said:

Miguel - what is the most someone can pay him (guaranteed) over the 3-year term? I've seen all sorts of different limits being suggested from various quarters (for example, there's a $1.57m suggestion a few posts back).

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A team could guarantee the first 3 years of his contract -
435000
525000
615000
======
$1,575 million

BTW, all 32 1st round picks have the first 3 year salaries fully guaranteed.

Jimke said:

How does this compare to other teams?

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The Undrafted Rookie Reservation limit of $86,957 applies to all teams. Don't have time to track the other team's signing bonuses given to UDFAs.

BTW, I will be blogging about Collins later tonight.

What questions do you have about Collins's cap ramifications that I should try to answer in my blog?

Miguel said:

What questions do you have about Collins's cap ramifications that I should try to answer in my blog?

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My biggest question, how many teams are currently cap capable of offering him the maximum dollar amount you just laid out?

I imagine many are already hampered by having used up the money in their pool.

http://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/?p=1734 is my blog.

Polian lit into the league office and the Director of Football Operations (Kensil) tonight on Sirius. Said that a league spokesman had said the rules prevented teams from talking to Collins, but teams were talking to him anyway.

Polian said the League (Dir of Football Operations) needs to step in, make a clear statement of the rules, and then enforce the rules. It's a competition fairness issue.

Miguel said:

http://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/?p=1734 is my blog.

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Good stuff, Miguel. I found the last question particularly helpful, as I wondered if we could withdraw any offers to other UDFAs, and what relevance that may have on the total amount remaining in the pool.

hwc said:

Polian lit into the league office and the Director of Football Operations (Kensil) tonight on Sirius. Said that a league spokesman had said the rules prevented teams from talking to Collins, but teams were talking to him anyway.

Polian said the League (Dir of Football Operations) needs to step in, make a clear statement of the rules, and then enforce the rules. It's a competition fairness issue.

Click to expand...

Suspend Rex.

Examining the salary cap ramifications of La'el Collins possibly signing with the Patriots

Miguel Benzan

Examining the salary cap ramifications of La'el Collins possibly signing with the Patriots

Continue reading...

Miguel said:

There is a Undrafted Rookie Reservation limit of $86,957.
Pats have already used $22,500.

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I don't understand. Obviously, if a UDFA makes the 53 he will make more than $87K.

QUESTION 1
Is there a limit on salaries for UDFA's? Current and future years?

QUESTION 2
Is there a limit on the amount of incentive bonuses?

QUESTION 3
If a team though that he is worth $3.2M for 2015, could they have playing time bonuses of $200K per game on the 53 man roster? or even a $3M bonus if he was on the 53 man roster for Game One, or for game 2?
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EDIT - QUESTION FOUR
I've read your blog. What stands in the way of paying Collins $1.5M a year in playing time incentives?

This is a nice summary. Thanks. I discussed a lot of these points earlier, but this is a much crisper analysis. I'm not 100% convinced that a contract that agreed to not make Collins a RFA after 2017 would be disallowed; there's never been any precedent for that kind of situation. It is not something that is explicitly dis-allowed, just something that is not specifically allowed. I'm guessing this kind of situation never occurred to the people who drafted the 2011 CBA.

Another question that I have is whether the Pats would be able to use the money for their 5th round pick towards signing Collins if Joe Cardona is not granted an exemption by the Navy. It sounds like you don't think this would be the case.

mgteich said:

I don't understand. Obviously, if a UDFA makes the 53 he will make more than $87K.

QUESTION 1
Is there a limit on salaries for UDFA's? Current and future years?

QUESTION 2
Is there a limit on the amount of incentive bonuses?

QUESTION 3
If a team though that he is worth $3.2M for 2015, could they have playing time bonuses of $200K per game on the 53 man roster? or even a $3M bonus if he was on the 53 man roster for Game One, or for game 2?
=======
EDIT - QUESTION FOUR
I've read your blog. What stands in the way of paying Collins $1.5M a year in playing time incentives?

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I believe the money Miguel is talking about is the limit on signing bonuses paid out to UDFAs.

QUESTION 5
Are there any league restrictions on how the udfa signing bonus can be delivered to the player? For example, let's say we offered Collins a meager $20k signing bonus, are there any restrictions on the vessel in which this money is to be delivered in? Let's assume instead of sticking the bonus check in an actual envelope, we stuck the check into the trunk of a Bugatti Veyron 16.4 that we labeled "envelope," and that he could what he please with.

mgteich said:

I don't understand. Obviously, if a UDFA makes the 53 he will make more than $87K.

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The Undrafted Rookie Reservation is the total amount of signing bonus that can be paid by a team to its signed UDFAs. So you can't give any one UDFA a signing boyus that exceeds $86K, and the more you give to one player, the less you have to offer other potential UDFAs. I believe Dallas has already given a $55K signing bonus to one UDFA so far this year. The Undrafted Rookie Reservation does not address total UDFA salary and compensation.

mgteich said:

QUESTION 1
Is there a limit on salaries for UDFA's? Current and future years?

QUESTION 2
Is there a limit on the amount of incentive bonuses?

QUESTION 3
If a team though that he is worth $3.2M for 2015, could they have playing time bonuses of $200K per game on the 53 man roster? or even a $3M bonus if he was on the 53 man roster for Game One, or for game 2?
=======
EDIT - QUESTION FOUR
I've read your blog. What stands in the way of paying Collins $1.5M a year in playing time incentives?

Click to expand...

You might want to try reading Article 7 of the CBA, the link to which I provided in post #50 above, but here it is again:

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

Here's my quick take on your questions:

1. Is there a limit on salaries for UDFAs? Not specifically. But UDFA salaries beyond the minimum fall under each team's rookie allocation pool, so if you spend a disproportionate amount on a UDFA it is going to throw off the amount you have to spend on your drafted players. I don't think anyone envisioned a situation where a UDFA would potentially merit being payed like a highly drafted player. As Miguel noted in his blog:

On a league-wide basis the rookie pool is the total amount of money that can be spent on all rookies, except that the minimum base salaries for undrafted rookies do not count toward the rookie pool. Each team’s rookie pool is its portion of the league-wide total and is determined by the number, round and position of the draft choices it uses, plus one-third of the Undrafted Rookie Reservation. The total slotted 2015 cap number for the Patriots 11 draft picks is $6,639,208. I provide more information about how the rookie pool works in this blog post. The Patriots rookie pool is therefore $6,668,194 ($6,639,208 plus one-third of the $86,957 – $28,986. As Adamjt13 in his 2012 blog about the rookie pool notes “the entire first-year cap numbers for all of a team’s draft choices must fit into its rookie pool, along with any first-year cap charges for undrafted rookies other than their minimum base salaries. When a team signs a drafted player, his first-year cap number does not have to be equal, or even close to, the rookie pool value of the pick used to select him, as long as the team’s combined rookie pool charges for all of its rookies don’t exceed its limit. Therefore, the Patriots could have one or more draft picks under their slotted amounts and allocate the difference to Collins. Because of this I can not now answer the question what could be Collins’ maximum cap number.

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There's nothing stopping the Patriots from giving a higher percentage of their rookie pool to Collins, but this would take away from what they have to offer their drafted players, which could cause their offers to their drafted players to be out of skew with the rest of the NFL. This could lead to disgruntlement, and possibly holdouts.

- Is there a limit on current and future years? UDFA salaries are subject to the 25% rule just like those for drafted players, and cannot be guaranteed for more in a subsequent year than they were in a previous year.

2. Is there a limit on the amount of incentive bonuses?

Yes, though some are explicit and others implicit. These are governed by Article 7 Section 6 of the CBA, which reads:

Section 6. Performance Incentives:

(a) Rookie Contracts for players selected in rounds one and two may contain performance incentives based upon achievement of an agreed-upon offensive or defen- sive regular season playtime percentage (calculated by dividing the player’s total regular season plays (offensive or defensive) by the Club’s total regular season plays) of at least (i) 35% in the first year of his initial contract or (ii) 45% in any subsequent year of such a contract. Rookie Contracts for players selected in rounds three through seven and Undrafted Rookies may contain performance incentives based upon achievement of an agreed-upon offensive or defensive regular season playtime percentage (calculated by dividing the player’s total regular season plays (offensive or defensive) by the Club’s total regular season plays) of at least (i) 15% in the first year of his initial contract or (ii) 30% in any subsequent year of such a contract. Any performance incentive for less than the offensive or defensive playtime percentages described above or based upon the achievement of any other statistic or honor is prohibited.

(b) All performance incentives shall be considered Rookie Salary, shall count at the highest possible earnable amount for each League Year the incentive is applicable, and will be included in the 25% Increase Rule, Year-One Rookie Salary (if applicable), the Total Rookie Compensation Pool, the Year-One Rookie Compensation Pool (if applicable), the Club’s Total Rookie Allocation, and the Club’s Year-One Rookie Alloca- tion (if applicable).

(c) Performance incentives may be earned only based upon playtime in the current League Year and may not be guaranteed for skill, injury or Salary Cap-related contract terminations.

(d) Performance incentives may not be modified, nullified, or created by achievement of or failure to achieve other incentives.

(e) Unearned performance incentives in a current year may not be carried forward into future years. Earned performance incentives may not negate future year performance incentives or create additional incentives.

(f) A player’s achievement of an incentive may not determine or affect whether he will or may achieve any performance incentive in a subsequent season.

(g) Performance incentives based upon individual performance for ranking on the Club or in the League, Division or Conference (e.g., leading the Club in offensive playtime) are prohibited.

(h) A performance incentive must be based only upon a specific numerical playtime amount. For example, an incentive may provide for a player to receive a bonus if he participates in 40% of his Club’s offensive plays, but it may not provide for the player to receive the performance incentive if he improves in playtime over a prior season.

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I don't think that a team could offer Collins anything like $1.5M in playing time incentives, or $200K/game incentives. I think that game incentives are prohibited because they are not "based only on a specific numerical playtime amount". I think that the total amount will be limited by the fact that all incentives count as Rookie Salary, and count against the total team pool. So if a team Collins $3M in incentives (based on a specific numerical playtime amount), they would decrement their rookie signing pool by $3M. That would have a crippling effect.

I defer to Miguel if he has a different take on any of this.

mayoclinic said:

The Undrafted Rookie Reservation is the total amount of signing bonus that can be paid by a team to its signed UDFAs. So you can't give any one UDFA a signing boyus that exceeds $86K, and the more you give to one player, the less you have to offer other potential UDFAs. I believe Dallas has already given a $55K signing bonus to one UDFA so far this year. The Undrafted Rookie Reservation does not address total UDFA salary and compensation.


You might want to try reading Article 7 of the CBA, the link to which I provided in post #50 above, but here it is again:

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

Here's my quick take on your questions:

1. Is there a limit on salaries for UDFAs? Not specifically. But UDFA salaries beyond the minimum fall under each team's rookie allocation pool, so if you spend a disproportionate amount on a UDFA it is going to throw off the amount you have to spend on your drafted players. I don't think anyone envisioned a situation where a UDFA would potentially merit being payed like a highly drafted player. As Miguel noted in his blog:


There's nothing stopping the Patriots from giving a higher percentage of their rookie pool to Collins, but this would take away from what they have to offer their drafted players, which could cause their offers to their drafted players to be out of skew with the rest of the NFL. This could lead to disgruntlement, and possibly holdouts.

- Is there a limit on current and future years? UDFA salaries are subject to the 25% rule just like those for drafted players, and cannot be guaranteed for more in a subsequent year than they were in a previous year.

2. Is there a limit on the amount of incentive bonuses?

Yes. These are governed by Article 7 Section 6 of the CBA, which reads:


I don't think that a team could offer Collins anything like $1.5M in playing time incentives, or $200K/game incentives. I think that game incentives are prohibited because they are not "based only on a specific numerical playtime amount". I think that the total amount will be limited by the fact that all incentives count as Rookie Salary, and count against the total team pool. So if the Pats give Collins $3M in incentives, they decrement their rookie signing pool by $3M.

I defer to Miguel if he has a different take on any of this.

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I've read Miguel's blog analysis. BTW, this speculation is just for fun. I think that there are other teams that would want a LT much more than we do.

There seem to be two major opportunities in the CBA language. Let us presume that a team was ready to offend Collins a starting position.

OPPORTUNITY 1: The player shall receive a bonus upon being on the 2016 roster, which bonus will based on his playing time in 2015. If his playing time is more than 70% of the offensive reps, the bonus will be $2M, if between 50 and 70% $1M; otherwise, $550K. This bonus would also be available in 2017 based on 2016 play.

OPPORTUNITY 2 - Since the contract is a 3 year contract and can renegotiated after 2 years, include an additional option payment payable BEFORE the 2016 ends which would make it likely that the team renegotiates after 2 years.

CONCLUSION
It MAY be possible for Collins to earn more than a first round draft choice. First, the contract is one year shorter, with no team option for a 5th year, and is renegotiable after two years. So, the 4th and 5th years could be much more lucrative to Collins. The 3rd year could be if there is renegotiation or if any of the above clauses are allowed.

mgteich said:

OPPORTUNITY 1: The player shall receive a bonus upon being on the 2016 roster, which bonus will based on his playing time in 2015. If his playing time is more than 70% of the offensive reps, the bonus will be $2M, if between 50 and 70% $1M; otherwise, $550K. This bonus would also be available in 2017 based on 2016 play.

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9. Question: Could Collins' salary increase based on him fulfilling a contingency? Answer: Per the CBA, no.

OPPORTUNITY 2 - Since the contract is a 3 year contract and can renegotiated after 2 years, include an additional option payment payable BEFORE the 2016 ends which would make it likely that the team renegotiates after 2 years.

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7.) Question: Can Collins' UDFA contract contain option bonus or a voidable year clause? Answer: Per the CBA, no.

CONCLUSION
It MAY be possible for Collins to earn more than a first round draft choice. First, the contract is one year shorter, with no team option for a 5th year, and is renegotiable after two years. So, the 4th and 5th years could be much more lucrative to Collins. The 3rd year could be if there is renegotiation or if any of the above clauses are allowed.

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I will have to make it clearer that Collins's compensation as an UDFA is severely limited.

JMC00 said:

From what I've seen the most he can get is $1.57m guaranteed. Every team interested in him would give him that in a heartbeat.

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Yeah, everyone is going to offer him the same thing unless someone finds a loophole in the CBA that other teams didn't come up with (which he will just tell any team he wants to sign with about the same loophole).

Collins is going to go to the team that he feels is the best situation. I assume since this incident cost him millions of dollars, he will go to the place where he can maximize future contracts. That means where he can start immediately at a position that will allow him to maximize his second deal (which most likely means tackle).

I think the only way the Pats have a shot is if he feels he will only be an average tackle, but could be an elite guard. Then he thinks he would make more money playing guard. Everything I read said he would be a solid tackle. So I don't think he wants to make the move.

If he does want to play guard, then the Pats have a fairly good shot. If he wants to stay at tackle, they have no shot.

Updated the blog with answers to mgteich's questions
http://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/?p=1734