So, are we looking for cornerbacks?

The testing is disappointing. Still would be ok with taking him late.

manxman2601 said:

Such a shame - 6'1", 202lbs and played well at the senior bowl but running 4.69 makes him barely draftable unless he improves at his pro day. Before the combine he was on my list of later round value picks.

Click to expand...

Gunter had an absolutely brutal combine. His measurables line would be unexciting for a 250-lb. OLB, let alone a 200-lb. CB:

4.69/2.75/1.68 12 33 1/2 09'00" 4.41 7.18

Byron Jones Kevin Johnson.

bbell31 said:

Byron Jones Kevin Johnson.

Click to expand...

There's a lot of CB we could like, I suspect PJ Williams is high on our board. Problem is a lot of CB are going in the first round and N.O., which traded right ahead of us, is one of them. If there's one we really like I could see a trade ahead of N.O. and possibly ahead of Baltimore.

That said, we lost two CB and signed two with a lot of NFL experience (+ another who's more of a longshot) and have Dennard "coming back" as he was inactive most of last year so I don't think we need to add to the numbers. We can make do with what we have but a top guy would be great if he's sitting there.

A powerful DT or a stud OG are just as big of a need for me.

I have to ask, why has there not been more love for Darby on this site? He seems to have the exact cover skills we are looking for if we want to continue to play man and is one of the few who have the athleticism to be a Revis-lite type player (obviously he won't be Revis, but he could be good).

Not that there is anything wrong with the other corners that are binkys here, just surprised Darby isn't one of them.

manxman2601 said:

Such a shame - 6'1", 202lbs and played well at the senior bowl but running 4.69 makes him barely draftable unless he improves at his pro day. Before the combine he was on my list of later round value picks.

Click to expand...

patchick said:

Gunter had an absolutely brutal combine. His measurables line would be unexciting for a 250-lb. OLB, let alone a 200-lb. CB:

4.69/2.75/1.68 12 33 1/2 09'00" 4.41 7.18

Click to expand...

Well I don't think a bad combine should mean he is undraftable. Butler ran something like a 4.7 his first time IIRC then showed later he was in the 4,5 range. We will see what he does later on but if he does not get another chance to run before the draft this to me makes him a value pick.

If this makes everyone pass on him till the 7th or as an UDFA take a shot. A number of things can turn a 4.5 player into a 4.7 player for a day or week or month.

The tape at the senior bowl is more interesting. We should look at it and ask "does he play like he runs a 4.7?" If he plays faster than that this 40 time is probably meaningless and on a different day he would do better.

nickw308810 said:

I have to ask, why has there not been more love for Darby on this site? He seems to have the exact cover skills we are looking for if we want to continue to play man and is one of the few who have the athleticism to be a Revis-lite type player (obviously he won't be Revis, but he could be good).

Not that there is anything wrong with the other corners that are binkys here, just surprised Darby isn't one of them.

Click to expand...

I like Darby enough as do a lot of people. Just most people here are focusing more on CBs that are near locks before 64. Darby has shown good things and has upside but he is raw with questionable hands dropping several ints. He looks like a 3rd or 4th round CB to most people and that is just not what most people here are focusing on.

BelichickFan said:

There's a lot of CB we could like, I suspect PJ Williams is high on our board. Problem is a lot of CB are going in the first round and N.O., which traded right ahead of us, is one of them. If there's one we really like I could see a trade ahead of N.O. and possibly ahead of Baltimore.

That said, we lost two CB and signed two with a lot of NFL experience (+ another who's more of a longshot) and have Dennard "coming back" as he was inactive most of last year so I don't think we need to add to the numbers. We can make do with what we have but a top guy would be great if he's sitting there.

A powerful DT or a stud OG are just as big of a need for me.

Click to expand...

I dont see NO going corner, they got Lewis Browner and SJB 2round pick last year etc. They have other needs before a corner. Bet they going Pass rusher and then OL or DL. Ravens, Steelers, Eagles may go Corner - So 3-4 Teams before us, depending on draft ofc.

Luxusdk said:

I dont see NO going corner, they got Lewis Browner and SJB 2round pick last year etc. They have other needs before a corner. Bet they going Pass rusher and then OL or DL. Ravens, Steelers, Eagles may go Corner - So 3-4 Teams before us, depending on draft ofc.

Click to expand...

I forgot about Browner, you're right they may well not take a CB, although a lot of CB will still be gone.

I'm a little mixed on what to expect, I think Belichick is more comfortable at CB than the fans are so I don't think he'll elevate that position over any other and DL is still, by far, the most common position for #1 picks since Bill's been in N.E.

Very interesting and informative thread, thanks. Here is my take as of today, which of course could change by tomorrow.

1. The more I look at the top 3 CB's within our reach (Peters, Jones, Johnson), the less I think any of them are going to be worth the pick, except for Peters and he comes with the huge character risk.

2. The thing that I think is most missing from our current CB group is SIZE. And picking one of the top 3 is not going to solve that problem, even if we are lucky enough to hit on it. The WR's we will have to face week to week are only getting longer, yet significant size is the one thing that is missing from pretty much ALL the CB's this year. So I suggest this strategy.

3. Take a "big" with that first pick (DT/OG) Its probably the safest strategy that will yield us a 5 year productive starter. THEN with the 2nd round pick take the CB who has what we don't have, which is size and press coverage skills in Rowe. THEN at the end of the 4rh round double dip with a project in Nick Marshall. Now you have another CB with size, who for next year you can use in specific situational packages when you need size and not experience.

4. That will give us 2 CB's over 6' that can be used all over the field. I really think we are going to see a defensive secondary where the lines between S's and CB's will continue to keep getting blurred, and labels like SS and slot CB will become even more meaningless, as coverages need to become more disguised and complex.

5. To that end it will also be important for the Pats to either add one of those SS/LB hybrids or a guy like Darius Flemming develops into a consistent contributor next season

At 6'1", 200lbs, 32" arms and jumping 44.5" vertically, size is not Byron Jones' problem.

Darrelle Revis is 5'11" 204lb. Just sayin.

patsfaninpa said:

Darrelle Revis is 5'11" 204lb. Just sayin.

Click to expand...

And none of these guys are anything close to Darrelle Revis, so lets not throw THAT canard in there. The point is that what we lack in the secondary is SIZE. We have plenty of 5'11 guys who will be constantly going against 6'4 guys. What I'd like is a 6'3 guy who can match up against one of those bigger WR's Well since I can't get one of those, I was hoping to find one of the better 6'1 guys.

BTW- Jones must be growing by the minute because I originally saw him listed as just under 6', then he was 6', and now I'm told he's 6'1. Maybe my problem is that I'm not patient enough. All, it seems I need to do is wait a few more weeks and I'll eventually get that 6'4 CB I'm craving.

Just a thought but given the explosion of big WR's, I'm surprised the same people who brought you the basketball playing TE, hasn't been raiding the hard courts looking for that 6'3 point guard with loose hips and an edgy attitude. You'd think there'd be a few guys who could fit that athletic profile who can make a better living playing CB in the NFL than ending up a point guard playing for room and board in Lebanon

patfanken said:

And none of these guys are anything close to Darrelle Revis, so lets not throw THAT canard in there. The point is that what we lack in the secondary is SIZE. We have plenty of 5'11 guys who will be constantly going against 6'4 guys. What I'd like is a 6'3 guy who can match up against one of those bigger WR's Well since I can't get one of those, I was hoping to find one of the better 6'1 guys.

BTW- Jones must be growing by the minute because I originally saw him listed as just under 6', then he was 6', and now I'm told he's 6'1. Maybe my problem is that I'm not patient enough. All, it seems I need to do is wait a few more weeks and I'll eventually get that 6'4 CB I'm craving.

Just a thought but given the explosion of big WR's, I'm surprised the same people who brought you the basketball playing TE, hasn't been raiding the hard courts looking for that 6'3 point guard with loose hips and an edgy attitude. You'd think there'd be a few guys who could fit that athletic profile who can make a better living playing CB in the NFL than ending up a point guard playing for room and board in Lebanon

Click to expand...

Re: Byron Jones

All I did was look at his combine measurements which is as official as it gets and he was 6'1" exactly. So no need to wait, you can take that to the bank.

patfanken said:

And none of these guys are anything close to Darrelle Revis, so lets not throw THAT canard in there. The point is that what we lack in the secondary is SIZE. We have plenty of 5'11 guys who will be constantly going against 6'4 guys. What I'd like is a 6'3 guy who can match up against one of those bigger WR's Well since I can't get one of those, I was hoping to find one of the better 6'1 guys.

BTW- Jones must be growing by the minute because I originally saw him listed as just under 6', then he was 6', and now I'm told he's 6'1. Maybe my problem is that I'm not patient enough. All, it seems I need to do is wait a few more weeks and I'll eventually get that 6'4 CB I'm craving.

Just a thought but given the explosion of big WR's, I'm surprised the same people who brought you the basketball playing TE, hasn't been raiding the hard courts looking for that 6'3 point guard with loose hips and an edgy attitude. You'd think there'd be a few guys who could fit that athletic profile who can make a better living playing CB in the NFL than ending up a point guard playing for room and board in Lebanon

Click to expand...

How many 6'3" corners come out of college each year? Probably one or two and they aren't quick enough to handle the position. There's a reason teams measure vertical leaps and arms. The right 5'11" kid is just fine. Just have to choose the right CB. Which, wr struggle to do.

Towson's Tye Smith who ran a 4.6 at the combine improved to 4.48 as his fastest time today. other 6', 190-200lb CB with 32" arms. Had a decent (not great) combine aside from the forty.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/tye-smith?id=2552449

patsfaninpa said:

How many 6'3" corners come out of college each year? Probably one or two and they aren't quick enough to handle the position. There's a reason teams measure vertical leaps and arms. The right 5'11" kid is just fine. Just have to choose the right CB. Which, wr struggle to do.

Click to expand...

Well that's my point. We are certainly getting plenty of 6'3+ receivers, so maybe its time we stopped waiting for some big CB's to come out of college and just "create" a few.

It might be too late for him, but a perfect candidate for a big CB transformation off the top of my head would be Steven Hill. Here's a kid with 4.3 speed and a 6'4 frame who couldn't make it as a productive NFL WR. Reportedly he was a tough kid who was a good run blocker, why wouldn't be worth his effort to revive his career as a situational CB instead of a PS WR. I'd have to think there are a dozen other guys who currently fit the role of a marginal potential WR who is 6'2+ and would like to be in the league a few more years than its looking now.

I'm not looking necessarily for a guy who will turn into an All Pro, or even an every down starter. But rather the guy you can use against specific personnel groupings. A good enough athlete that you can teach a few easy techniques that will help you while he makes a full transition to a new position.

You don't have to be a football genius to realize that sending out 5'11 guys to play 6'5 guys is not a recipe for consistent success, especially against a good QB. The defensive side of the ball HAS to respond or they will fall further and further behind the offense. They have no choice but to go out and find some bodies that will at least have a shot at competing.

BTW- thanks for the info on Jones, at a full 6'1, with 32' arms and a 40+" vertical, he just might be the best "big CB" available this season, even if he doesn't play to his freakish athleticism right now, he seems like he has the kind of work ethic that he can grow into his potential, much like Collins has over the last 2 years. I doubt anyone thinks that he's a finished product right now

Nothing personal Ken. But, It's hard to "create" good cornerbacks. I watch high school, college and pro basketball. Most of the guards are soft as charmin. They throw their arms up in the air when you touch them. And, fall to the ground when you bump into them. Good luck teaching them how to become complete football players without any experience. Or more importantly, the will to work and hit people. Without a lot of money at the beginning of their careers because they will be un-drafted free agents

patsfaninpa said:

Nothing personal Ken. But, It's hard to "create" good cornerbacks. I watch high school, college and pro basketball. Most of the guards are soft as charmin. They throw their arms up in the air when you touch them. And, fall to the ground when you bump into them. Good luck teaching them how to become complete football players without any experience. Or more importantly, the will to work and hit people. Without a lot of money at the beginning of their careers because they will be un-drafted free agents

Click to expand...

I didn't say it would be easy, though not as daunting as you make it seem. . The point is that you are right. There are no 6'3 CB's coming out of college, while the numbers of receivers that are that big or bigger grows by the year. What's the harm in looking outside the box to find a commodity that clearly needs to be found.

If the NFL had a good minor-league system, that would be a good area to try and develop players like that. With every roster space a premium, it's hard to bring along talented but un-prepared kids.