43 Drop backs 3 pressures

I strongly agree.

We need at least one DE for the rotation. We also need an upgrade to Carter, a competitor to Buchanan.

This is one of our top needs, along with TE (in addition to re-signing or replacing our own).

mayoclinic said:

Jones and Ninkovich played too many snaps during the regular season (98.1% and 95.6%, respectively). It helped with all the instability at the DT position, but ultimately they wore down. Chris Jones probably played too many snaps, too - he was explosive when he first came on, but after playing an enormous number of snaps once Wilfork and Kelly went on IR he slowed down quite a bit.

You need to have waves to guys you can rotate in to keep people fresh - "pass rush by committee".

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mgteich said:

I strongly agree.

We need at least one DE for the rotation. We also need an upgrade to Carter, a competitor to Buchanan.

This is one of our top needs, along with TE (in addition to re-signing or replacing our own).

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I consider those 2 our greatest needs, with upgrading the interior lines on both sides next.

I assume that Carter is gone - I never thought that was a particularly great move, but the options were limited. Bequette should be gone, too. We need a solid DE for the rotation, Buchanan to develop as a sub rusher, and hopefully Armstead (or someone else if he can't come back) to be an "inside/outside" guy who can play some snaps at DE as well as DT.

Depending on what happens with the LB position, I wouldn't be averse to seeing Dont'a Hightower get more experience at DE. He's likely to be our MLB as things stand, but he has the versatility to play on the line. If we go with more mobile LBs then having Collins at SAM and Mayo at MLB with a more fluid LB who can play in space would allow Hightower to take some snaps on the line.

DaBruinz said:

Yep. Let's discount the fact that Jones was double-teamed all year and triple teamed many times and bash on him because of it. Let's bash on Jones because the interior reserve D-linemen weren't ALL-PRO Caliber like Wilfork and so that allowed teams to double and triple Jones.

BTW - 6.5 sacks in 13 games is NOT statisically the same as 11.5 in 16 games. If you don't think Chandler Jones improved, the issue is with your understanding of what improvement is.

BTW, most pass rushers are "inconsistent". Even Robert Mathis had 4 games where he didn't get sacks.. Yet he had 19.5 on the season.

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Jones had 6 sacks through the first 9 weeks, then he hurt his ankle against Indy, then he had one sack for the rest of the season. This prorates to 10.5 sacks over a full season. I'm not sure what part of "until he got injured" you didn't understand, but in the future I'd recommend reading posts before you launch into a tirade against them. Similarly, my definition of inconsistent is absolutely blowing up one play, and then not affecting the passing game in any significant way for most of the rest of the day. I'd counter your Robert Mathis example by citing Robert Mathis. No **** he had games where he didn't get sacks, welcome to the world of small sample sizes. He did, however, consistently impact the passing game, far more than Jones did for us. Again, Jones wasn't bad at it - he just didn't improve over his rookie year nearly as much as I would have liked.

By the way, the interior pass rushing specialist last year was Jermaine Cunningham. Chris Jones stepping into that role this year was actually an improvement. You seem to be trying to claim that losing Vince Wilfork made it much harder to rush the passer on obvious passing downs, which is self-evidently asinine.

Look, if claiming that Jones was constantly double-and-triple teamed makes you feel better about his lack of progress, then good for you. It's not actually true, though. He's a good player and one of the better pass rushers in the league, but I expected more growth between his rookie and sophomore seasons.

Tully Banta Cain had more pass rush moves than Chandler Jones, but his dances weren't as funny. I can't wait for more empty sack stats and funny Pee-Wee Herman dances.

mayoclinic said:

I think Jones is a Pro Bowl caliber player and one of the most complete defensive ends in the league. I love the guy. He is solid setting the edge and stopping the run and he has great versatility - 4-3 RDE, 3-4 DE, 3-4 OLB, 4-3 interior sub rusher. He gives great effort, and he gets double teamed and held a lot. My only critique is that I think his explosiveness fell off both of the last 2 seasons. The foot injury may have been a factor last year, but this year he was healthy, and I thought that while he continued to give great effort, he wasn't as effective as earlier in the season. I attribute part of that to the enormous snap count he played, the most of any defensive end in the NFL. Obviously, losing Wilfork and Kelly hurt, but by the end of the season Jones and Siliga were playing at a reasonably consistent level, so I'm not sure that explains it.

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I totally agree re: Jones' versatility. I love that about him, and a DE who can capably rush the passer without becoming a huge liability against the run (and against mobile QBs, nowadays) is an asset. But based on how he played as a rookie before his injury, I saw him as a legitimate threat to do all of that while also being a dominant pass rusher. That's how freakish of an athlete I see him as: maybe not a JJ Watt-level freak, but the next step down.

Instead, he was a good pass rusher who was excellent at setting the edge and flashed occasional explosiveness as a pass rusher. A very good, versatile player, but to build a top-tier defense you need a couple of guys who are even more than that--disruptive guys who you need to account for on every snap--and he didn't look like that guy.

If Gronk had followed up his rookie season with an 80 catch, 800 yard, 10 touchdown season, I'd feel roughly the same way. Not bad production by any means, but not the game-breaking elite potential that you saw during the rookie season by a long shot.

TonyTucker said:

Tully Banta Cain had more pass rush moves than Chandler Jones, but his dances weren't as funny. I can't wait for more empty sack stats and funny Pee-Wee Herman dances.

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Are you auditioning for the coveted worst poster award?

BradyFTW! said:

I totally agree re: Jones' versatility. I love that about him, and a DE who can capably rush the passer without becoming a huge liability against the run (and against mobile QBs, nowadays) is an asset. Based on how he played as a rookie before his injury, I saw him as a legitimate threat to do all of that while also being a dominant pass rusher. That's how freakish of an athlete I see him as: maybe not a JJ Watt-level freak, but the next step down.

Instead, he was a good pass rusher who was excellent at setting the edge and flashed occasional explosiveness as a pass rusher. A very good, versatile player, but to build a top-tier defense you need a couple of guys who are even more than that--disruptive guys who you need to account for on every snap--and he didn't look like that guy.

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I think Jamie Collins will eventually be the guy on the Pats' defense who other teams need to account for on every play - he has the potential to be Von Miller with more pass coverage ability (and not a turd). Not that I'd complain about getting an uber-explosive DE opposite Jones, but I'd be very happy getting a versatile, high motor guy like Trent Murphy, and then letting Collins be the disruptor. Add another LB like Kyle Van Noy or Marcus Smith, and you can really shake things up.

mayoclinic said:

I think Jamie Collins will eventually be the guy on the Pats' defense who other teams need to account for on every play - he has the potential to be Von Miller with more pass coverage ability (and not a turd). Not that I'd complain about getting an uber-explosive DE opposite Jones, but I'd be very happy getting a versatile, high motor guy like Trent Murphy, and then letting Collins be the disruptor. Add another LB like Kyle Van Noy or Marcus Smith, and you can really shake things up.

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Definitely, Collins has been a revelation this year. I love the guy. Even if Jones plateaus somewhat as a "very good, versatile DE who'll get you 10+ sacks while also containing the play", I could see Collins potentially developing into an elite game-breaker instead, as long as he continues to develop.

When I look at the best defenses in the NFL, I see 2-3 absolute studs surrounded by a bunch of good players. I think the Pats already have the good players part down, but they need a couple of the younger ones to develop into that absolute stud tier.

You could probably make a case that Talib is already there if they keep him, but if Wilfork (between age and injury) is no longer that kind of guy, then we need another 1-2 who are. Jones and Collins stick out to me as the two prime candidates, which pretty much sums up why I'm disappointed that Jones didn't make much of a leap this year.

You pressure QBs from the middle. The Pats lost Wilfork and Kelly, and started rookies. It is no coincidence the pass rush became less effective without the solid interior linemen. Collapse the pocket and you create chaos. Try to speed rush from the outside and you often find additional players there to slow you down when 1 on 1 blocking in the interior is sufficient.

It is amusing that fans have posted the limited sacks by Wilfork. That role is so much greater than stistics show, and influences the success of other defenders greatly. This NFL article discussed the concept in detail. The distinction is disrupt by proximity over having to reach the QB. Disruptions create opportunities to hit the QB when adjusting.

BradyFTW! said:

Definitely, Collins has been a revelation this year. I love the guy. Even if Jones plateaus somewhat as a "very good, versatile DE who'll get you 10+ sacks while also containing the play", I could see Collins potentially developing into an elite game-breaker instead, as long as he continues to develop.

When I look at the best defenses in the NFL, I see 2-3 absolute studs surrounded by a bunch of good players. I think the Pats already have the good players part down, but they need a couple of the younger ones to develop into that absolute stud tier.

You could probably make a case that Talib is already there if they keep him, but if Wilfork (between age and injury) is no longer that kind of guy, then we need another 1-2 who are. Jones and Collins stick out to me as the two prime candidates, which pretty much sums up why I'm disappointed that Jones didn't make much of a leap this year.

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IIRC, the Pats have never had a player post 2 consecutive seasons of 10+ sacks in BB's tenure. Mike Vrabel never did it, and Willie McGinest never got 10 with BB. If Jones can be a reliable 10+ sack guy, and Jamie Collins can develop into a disruptive play maker who has to be accounted for on every snap, that will be a really effective combination. Big "if's", but not unrealistic, I think.

mayoclinic said:

I think Jamie Collins ... has the potential to be Von Miller with more pass coverage ability

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hahahaha what

He had one good game

primetime said:

hahahaha what

He had one good game

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When's the last time we saw a LB cover, sack and make plays in the backfield?? been a long time..

I'm not going to say he's Miller but the dude, if used correctly (no injuries), he can be the game changer we've hoped Mayo would be.. While Mayo is good, He's not a game changer.. Something the defense needs bad..


Ont hat note, Niko is a good player but playoff time, you need that high level player.. We need more pressure from the front four and to me, this is an obvious neeed

primetime said:

hahahaha what

He had one good game

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Hence the word potential.

Scary thing is that they even lost their starting All Pro Left Tackle for the season. Would like to know who their OLine coach is. Have nothing to lose by blitzing Manning, he carves up zones in his sleep. At least a blitz would get him out of his comfort zone and force him make a quick unwarranted throw. We didn't see any of this on Sunday.

mayoclinic said:

IIRC, the Pats have never had a player post 2 consecutive seasons of 10+ sacks in BB's tenure. Mike Vrabel never did it, and Willie McGinest never got 10 with BB. If Jones can be a reliable 10+ sack guy, and Jamie Collins can develop into a disruptive play maker who has to be accounted for on every snap, that will be a really effective combination. Big "if's", but not unrealistic, I think.

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True, but I also think that Belichick's D has evolved quite a bit over his time here. and a lot of that had to do with instability at OLB. Between Rosevelt Colvin's injuries and Vrabel moving back and forth between OLB and ILB, there weren't many opportunities for a guy to get consecutive 10+ sack seasons. If Vrabel's role had been more consistent, Colvin stayed healthy, or Seymour one-gapped more often, I think any of them could have produced consecutive 10-sack seasons. Instead, they were constantly plugging holes, which meant that someone was typically getting that production, even if it wasn't the same guy from week to week, let alone for multiple consecutive seasons. Even Tully Banta-Cain got to be that guy for a year.

The role that Jones has now isn't really analogous to anything on the old 3-4 defense; we never had a player quite like him or a role quite like his. McGinest is probably the closest, but even that doesn't totally add up.

Ninko was on the radio saying that the Broncos got rid of the ball in about a second and no matter what you do you're not going to get there fast enough when they get rid of the ball that fast. Has nothing to do with pass rush and everything to do with the game plan and what the Pats gave them on defense. Everybody piling on Jones and Ninko should take a deep breath and re-watch the game.

Brock Samson said:

Ninko was on the radio saying that the Broncos got rid of the ball in about a second and no matter what you do you're not going to get there fast enough when they get rid of the ball that fast. Has nothing to do with pass rush and everything to do with the game plan and what the Pats gave them on defense. Everybody piling on Jones and Ninko should take a deep breath and re-watch the game.

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I was screaming at the TV during the game for the secondary to play more press man. Instead, they were playing way too much zone and way too much off man. Essentially, they were defending against a deep ball that was never going to come. Because of that, the timing offense that the Broncos run worked to perfection and Manning usually had his first or second read open. The lack of pressure was due to a number of things, but this is a huge reason IMO. Extremely stupid game plan when it came to coverage in the back end. The Seahawks will squat on those short and underneath routes and dare Manning to beat them deep. He won't be able to.

Have a look at the Seahawks Defensive rotation to get an understanding of why they bludgeon teams with D.

Red Bryant, Michael Bennett, Brandon Mebane, Cliff Avril and Tony McDaniel with LBers coming in to support such as Bruce Irvin, Bobby Wagner and K.J.Wright.

They are stacked with pass rushers. That's what Bill needs to develop because you can rest your bottom dollar, you need pass rushers in the playoffs.

ausbacker said:

Have a look at the Seahawks Defensive rotation to get an understanding of why they bludgeon teams with D.

Red Bryant, Michael Bennett, Brandon Mebane, Cliff Avril and Tony McDaniel with LBers coming in to support such as Bruce Irvin, Bobby Wagner and K.J.Wright.

They are stacked with pass rushers. That's what Bill needs to develop because you can rest your bottom dollar, you need pass rushers in the playoffs.

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Seattle's DL isn't really something that can be replicated in New England. Not a single defensive lineman on the team played in over 58% of the defensive snaps, but seven played between 46% and that 58%. Of those 7, five are:
Michael Bennett: $4.8M/1yr
Chris Clemons: Second year of $22M/3yrs, $8.2M cap hit
Cliff Avril: First year of $13M/2yrs, $3.75M cap hit
Brandon Mebane: Third year of $25M/5yrs, $5.2M cap hit
Red Bryant: Second year of $35M/5yrs, $7.6M cap hit

Well there's where your bottom dollar went. The Seattle DL is making over $30M of them. That's about a quarter of the salary cap last season. Seattle essentially has two defensive lines, the run defense one and the pass defense one. They can get away with it because Richard Sherman and Russell Wilson combined for a $1.28M cap hit. The Pats aren't so lucky. The other teams spending more than the Seahawks on the DL are the Vikings and Bengals. The Bengals have Dalton for $1.4M and Green for still a bargain at $5.4M, plus that DL number is inflated by Johnson's $11.2M franchise tag. The Vikings' $33M on the DL is over half Jared Allen's $17M alone, and they're hardly the ideal well-balanced team.

tl;dr: The Seattle DL is awesome. They're also out of the price range of any good team with a good QB off a rookie contract.

Sciz said:

Seattle's DL isn't really something that can be replicated in New England. Not a single defensive lineman on the team played in over 58% of the defensive snaps, but seven played between 46% and that 58%. Of those 7, five are:
Michael Bennett: $4.8M/1yr
Chris Clemons: Second year of $22M/3yrs, $8.2M cap hit
Cliff Avril: First year of $13M/2yrs, $3.75M cap hit
Brandon Mebane: Third year of $25M/5yrs, $5.2M cap hit
Red Bryant: Second year of $35M/5yrs, $7.6M cap hit

Well there's where your bottom dollar went. The Seattle DL is making over $30M of them. That's about a quarter of the salary cap last season. Seattle essentially has two defensive lines, the run defense one and the pass defense one. They can get away with it because Richard Sherman and Russell Wilson combined for a $1.28M cap hit. The Pats aren't so lucky. The other teams spending more than the Seahawks on the DL are the Vikings and Bengals. The Bengals have Dalton for $1.4M and Green for still a bargain at $5.4M, plus that DL number is inflated by Johnson's $11.2M franchise tag. The Vikings' $33M on the DL is over half Jared Allen's $17M alone, and they're hardly the ideal well-balanced team.

tl;dr: The Seattle DL is awesome. They're also out of the price range of any good team with a good QB off a rookie contract.

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I endorse all of your thoughts Sciz it's more that's what the Patriots need to aspire toward if the D is going to become a playoff force. As it stands, New England simply doesn't have the cattle nor does it scheme to consistently destroy OLs with a pass rush.