Ridley officially arrives at crossroads

If Ridley has officially arrived at the crossroads, maybe he can sell his soul to the devil in exchange for never fumbling again.

ehh aaa haa sumbodee hadta say it.

coolguy said:

I just love how everyone pretends like dillion and bjge were not products of the best offensive lines in the league.

Ridley these two years has arguably been playing behind the worst the pats offensive line the have had in 10 years. (I'm not saying the offensive line is terrible, but it's inferior to the matt light era seasons)

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Last year's line was among the best run blocking lines the Patriots have fielded. Solder is a better blocker than Light ever was and Wendell (at least last year) was a top-flight run blocking center. I'd take last year's line over the likes of Kaczur, Andruzzi and Ashworth.

Ridley has put up impressive numbers, but my impression is that he has been an all or nothing type of back. He picks up 8 - 12 pretty regularly, but isn't necessarily a guy who can be counted to get 3 yards on a 3rd and short. That, in my opinion, is what separates Ridley from Martin and Dillon (and Antwain Smith, for that matter).

Not to say that he is a stiff, Ridley is an above average feature back in a league full of platoon guys and would play a big role on any team that doesn't have an elite type back. Still, he's more of a replaceable part than Vareen.

Wrath Mania said:

So romanticizing the Martin/Dillon eras is why Ridley has become a fetish?

I mean, firstly, the Patriots offense and the NFL in general was a very different beast back in 2004; nowadays running backs are a dime-a-dozen, UNLESS you happen to get an all-world talent like Peterson or McCoy. Look at how the Colts got duped into trading for Richardson. In this era of passing, RBs are pretty dispensable- which, again, is why the defense of Ridley is so odd.
But all that aside- I'm trying to grasp your logic: Dillon was the best back since Curtis Martin. Right. And Ridley in 2012 matched Dillon's TD totals in 04. Therefore, and because it was "ONLY" his second-year (WOOOW!), Ridley MUST be the next MartinDillon. OK. Great.

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If you want to talk about people romanticize then you look no further than those who promote Corey Dillon’s time in New England. He had 1 great year and then 2 average at best seasons. Lets take a look at Ridley vs. Martin and Dillon:

Corey Dillon:
Seasons – 3
Games played -43
Carries – 753
Rushing yards – 3180
Avg per attempt – 4.22
Touchdowns – 37
Fumbles – 8
Fumbles Lost – 7

Ridley:
Seasons – 2+
Games played – 42
Carries – 512
Rushing yards – 2,280
Avg per attempt – 4.5
Touchdowns – 20
Fumbles – 9
Fumbles lost – 6

Martin:
Seasons – 3
Games – 45
Carries – 958
Rushing yards – 3,799
Avg per attempt – 3.95
Touchdowns – 32
Fumbles – 12
Fumbles lost – 8

Martin and Dillon were not exactly the securest ball carries and Ridley has significantly better yards per carry average then either of them.

You realize BJGE had 13 TDs in '10, 11 in '11, right? You realize that Ridley's 1300 yards rushing really isn't all that impressive, even for a team that is pass-first like the Pats; LeSean McCoy, for instance, already has almost 1100 yards this year for the Chip Kelly Eagles.

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The Patriots were 10th in rushing attempts and 20th in passing attempts in 2010.

Only 6 players ran for more than 1300 yards last season with the and all except Charles had 25+ more carries than Ridley, and they all played more than the 44.8% of the offensive snaps in 2012 that Ridley played, so yes I think nearly 1300 yards and 13 touchdowns is pretty damn impressive.

McCoy is one of the best running back in the game, his doing well doesn’t make Ridley less of a player so I don’t really get what your point is?

And before you start this crap about "BUT ITS ONLY HIS THIRD YEAR," you realize that Ridley has absolutely shown no evidence to evolving to more than what he is; that is to say, a one-dimensional runner with some above-average talent for hitting the hole, who can't improvise when a play falls apart, offers nothing to the passing game, and also happens to keep fumbling the ball away? Whereas a LeSean McCoy showed tremendous versatility as early as his first year, in all phases of offense?

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So you like McCoy I get that once again McCoy being good doesn’t make Ridley bad, and Ridley is not 1 dimensional he is not featured in the passing game but he has been targeted 10 times in 2013 for 9 receptions which is significantly improved over the 14 times he was targeted last year for 6 receptions. Other improvements

If you look at more of the league than just the Patriots, you'll see there's nothing special at all about Ridley. And when you consider his continued incompetence on-field, why bother with him?

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He is a liability in the eyes of Belichick who holds his players to a much higher standard, the thing you do not realize though as your making these arguments suggesting the greatness of McCoy he has 4 lost fumbles since the start of last season to Ridley’s 5; during that same period of time 19 rushing touchdowns to Mr. McCoy’s 7. You’re putting down a player that really has been very, very good during his 2+ seasons here outside of some immaturity with his ball security.

Deus Irae said:

I'm not undervaluing the kid. The Patriots have had one (count them, ONE) healthy, established and quality RB since Martin departed, and that was Corey Dillon at the tail end of his career. Saying that Ridley's season was up near the top of the dross in that time is like saying Mark Sanchez is the best QB the Jets have had since 2010. It's meaningless, even if true.

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As I pointed out in another post:

Corey Dillon:
Seasons – 3
Games played -43
Carries – 753
Rushing yards – 3180
Avg per attempt – 4.22
Touchdowns – 37
Fumbles – 8
Fumbles Lost – 7

Ridley:
Seasons – 2+
Games played – 42
Carries – 512
Rushing yards – 2,280
Avg per attempt – 4.5
Touchdowns – 20
Fumbles – 9
Fumbles lost – 6

Martin:
Seasons – 3
Games – 45
Carries – 958
Rushing yards – 3,799
Avg per attempt – 3.95
Touchdowns – 32
Fumbles – 12
Fumbles lost – 8

Martin and Dillon were not that superior in their time here over Ridley, on an opportunity basis Ridley has actually been the best.

What you claim to be stating and what you're actually stating are not necessarily the same thing. That's even more true when you change "stating" to "suggesting" or "implying".

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Unfortunately I cannot control how you interrupt my posts, if we were having a verbal conversation I feel you’d see comprehend what I am attempting to convey to you better but since that is not possible I am just going to say you have the wrong perception of it and if you want to give it a second go over that’s fine and if you don’t that’s fine as well.

Brady6 said:

If you want to talk about people romanticize then you look no further than those who promote Corey Dillon’s time in New England. He had 1 great year and then 2 average at best seasons. Lets take a look at Ridley vs. Martin and Dillon:

Corey Dillon:
Seasons – 3
Games played -43
Carries – 753
Rushing yards – 3180
Avg per attempt – 4.22
Touchdowns – 37
Fumbles – 8
Fumbles Lost – 7

Ridley:
Seasons – 2+
Games played – 42
Carries – 512
Rushing yards – 2,280
Avg per attempt – 4.5
Touchdowns – 20
Fumbles – 9
Fumbles lost – 6

Martin:
Seasons – 3
Games – 45
Carries – 958
Rushing yards – 3,799
Avg per attempt – 3.95
Touchdowns – 32
Fumbles – 12
Fumbles lost – 8

Martin and Dillon were not exactly the securest ball carries and Ridley has significantly better yards per carry average then either of them.

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They were significantly more secure than Ridley and I don't think the YPC advantage is all that strong considering we have GOAT Brady and a much more spread offense now. Ridley has also benefitted from the no huddle offense and facing advantageous defensive looks.

ugh, more stats....use your eyes man. Somebody posted a video of Dillion highlights with the Pats. Watch that. the stats do not do any justice to the absolute beast Corey Dillion was here. Same for Martin.

You spend too much time looking at numbers, not enough time watching players.

Nunchucks said:

ugh, more stats....use your eyes man. Somebody posted a video of Dillion highlights with the Pats. Watch that. the stats do not do any justice to the absolute beast Corey Dillion was here. Same for Martin.

You spend too much time looking at numbers, not enough time watching players.

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You can hardly criticise the objectivity of stats by citing a highlight video. The very nature of a highlight video is that it shows a players best bits.

Brady6 said:

As I pointed out in another post:

Corey Dillon:
Seasons – 3
Games played -43
Carries – 753
Rushing yards – 3180
Avg per attempt – 4.22
Touchdowns – 37
Fumbles – 8
Fumbles Lost – 7

Ridley:
Seasons – 2+
Games played – 42
Carries – 512
Rushing yards – 2,280
Avg per attempt – 4.5
Touchdowns – 20
Fumbles – 9
Fumbles lost – 6

Martin:
Seasons – 3
Games – 45
Carries – 958
Rushing yards – 3,799
Avg per attempt – 3.95
Touchdowns – 32
Fumbles – 12
Fumbles lost – 8

Martin and Dillon were not that superior in their time here over Ridley, on an opportunity basis Ridley has actually been the best.



Unfortunately I cannot control how you interrupt my posts, if we were having a verbal conversation I feel you’d see comprehend what I am attempting to convey to you better but since that is not possible I am just going to say you have the wrong perception of it and if you want to give it a second go over that’s fine and if you don’t that’s fine as well.

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This sort of post is why I stopped using the stats when discussing this with you. You don't seem to understand the importance of context impacting statistics, so your use of statistics is worse than useless. Let me just point out a few things that should be obvious to you:

NFL during Dillon's time = more ground oriented with more run-oriented defenses than the NFL during Ridley's time

Dillon/Peterson frequently facing more men in the box makes his accomplishments more impressive than players facing fewer men in the box.

2004 NE: 524 rushes, 485 passes
2012 MN: 486 rushes, 483 passes
2012 NE: 523 rushes, 641 passes

If you can't understand how that might impact how defenders play the run and change the circumstances being dealt with by the runners, I don't know what to tell you.

manxman2601 said:

They were significantly more secure than Ridley and I don't think the YPC advantage is all that strong considering we have GOAT Brady and a much more spread offense now. Ridley has also benefitted from the no huddle offense and facing advantageous defensive looks.

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I don’t think the GOAT QB has anything to do with it, Mark Ingram sucks and he plays with Brees, Trent Richardson has fallen off the face of the earth since being paired with Luck, Moreno has been an average back in the two years with Peyton and the Packers leading rusher last season was Green with under 500 yards with Rodgers.

Brady6 said:

I don’t think the GOAT QB has anything to do with it, Mark Ingram sucks and he plays with Brees, Trent Richardson has fallen off the face of the earth since being paired with Luck, Moreno has been an average back in the two years with Peyton and the Packers leading rusher last season was Green with under 500 yards with Rodgers.

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So you don't think that teams setting out to defend the pass doesn't affect the freedom a RB gets? Ridley regularly faces two deeper safeties, nickel defensive formations and pass rushing D Lines. How can you not see that that benefits Ridley significantly?

If Ridley does not fix the fumbling issues, he will become another agonizing story of wasted potential.

Deus Irae said:

This sort of post is why I stopped using the stats when discussing this with you. You don't seem to understand the importance of context impacting statistics, so your use of statistics is worse than useless. Let me just point out a few things that should be obvious to you:

NFL during Dillon's time = more ground oriented with more run-oriented defenses than the NFL during Ridley's time

Dillon/Peterson frequently facing more men in the box makes his accomplishments more impressive than players facing fewer men in the box.

2004 NE: 524 rushes, 485 passes
2012 MN: 486 rushes, 483 passes
2012 NE: 523 rushes, 641 passes

If you can't understand how that might impact how defenders play the run and change the circumstances being dealt with by the runners, I don't know what to tell you.

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I understand context I just feel you position it to your advantage sometimes. If Martin and Dillion faced 8-9 men in the box they also had additional blockers in the form of tight ends or fullbacks, so yes Ridley run against 7 in the box but he also has less blockers in front of him.

On top of that you act like Bledsoe didn't throw for a ton of yards while here and Brady was some bum back in the mid 2000s.

I mean we can spin this all night but at the end of this Ridley has still been one of the most productive backs we've had in the last 20 years.

manxman2601 said:

So you don't think that teams setting out to defend the pass doesn't affect the freedom a RB gets? Ridley regularly faces two deeper safeties, nickel defensive formations and pass rushing D Lines. How can you not see that that benefits Ridley significantly?

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I also think we have less players who can run block on the field, if they faced 8-9 men they did so with 8-9 very good run blockers on the field. Ridley faces 7 defenders but he has players who are 5'9 180 Lbs. leading the way. Football is always going to be blockers vs. defenders in the run game, the offense owl put the blockers they need out there to combat the defense. I'm not saying it makes no difference but it is not to the degree as being suggested.

Brady6 said:

I also think we have less players who can run block on the field, if they faced 8-9 men they did so with 8-9 very good run blockers on the field. Ridley faces 7 defenders but he has players who are 5'9 180 Lbs. leading the way. Football is always going to be blockers vs. defenders in the run game, the offense owl put the blockers they need out there to combat the defense. I'm not saying it makes no difference but it is not to the degree as being suggested.

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Hang on. Until this year, one of those WR was a TE (Hernandez). The whole point of the Patriots quick speed no huddle offense is to give our offense a mismatch over the defense; whether that's an advantage in the run game where Ridley benefits (Gronk and Hernandez over a nickel or dime defense) or in the pass game (Vereen isolated on a LB for example).

manxman2601 said:

Hang on. Until this year, one of those WR was a TE (Hernandez). The whole point of the Patriots quick speed no huddle offense is to give our offense a mismatch over the defense; whether that's an advantage in the run game where Ridley benefits (Gronk and Hernandez over a nickel or dime defense) or in the pass game (Vereen isolated on a LB for example).

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Gronkowski and Hernandez played one game together last year before Hernandez was injured in week two, other than the limited reps Gronkowski took against the Jags at the end of the year they never played together.

Brady6 said:

I understand context I just feel you position it to your advantage sometimes.

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Yes.... When I take a position that deals with context, I tend to take that position because I think (based upon as objective a criteria as I can come up with) it is the correct one. That does give me an advantage.

Brady6 said:

If Martin and Dillion faced 8-9 men in the box they also had additional blockers in the form of tight ends or fullbacks, so yes Ridley run against 7 in the box but he also has less blockers in front of him.

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Ummmm...... In the passing game, it's 11 on 11. In the running game, it's 11 on 10. You're missing that critical distinction.

Brady6 said:

On top of that you act like Bledsoe didn't throw for a ton of yards while here and Brady was some bum back in the mid 2000s.

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I'm not acting like that at all. You are flailing about wildly, and you've now brought Drew Bledsoe into the discussion. That should have clued you in to just how weak your position is. Drew Bledsoe was not the QB of the Dillon era Patriots.

Brady6 said:

I mean we can spin this all night but at the end of this Ridley has still been one of the most productive backs we've had in the last 20 years.

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That changes absolutely nothing that was being discussed. Antowain Smith was a 1000 yard rusher (1157) in 2001. That doesn't mean that he was a great running back.

Brady6 said:

Gronkowski and Hernandez played one game together last year before Hernandez was injured in week two, other than the limited reps Gronkowski took against the Jags at the end of the year they never played together.

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And neither of them are 5'9". Neither was Hoomanawanui or Fells.

Brady6 said:

I understand context I just feel you position it to your advantage sometimes. If Martin and Dillion faced 8-9 men in the box they also had additional blockers in the form of tight ends or fullbacks, so yes Ridley run against 7 in the box but he also has less blockers in front of him.

On top of that you act like Bledsoe didn't throw for a ton of yards while here and Brady was some bum back in the mid 2000s.

I mean we can spin this all night but at the end of this Ridley has still been one of the most productive backs we've had in the last 20 years.

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That is complete fiction. We have a FB on the team this year who is the extra blocker you claim isn't here. We also have the best TE blocker ever in Gronk who is a bulldozer when it comes to log or crack blocking. That apparently hasn't helped Ridley.

In the last 20 years our best RB's have been Curtis Martin, Corey Dillon, and maybe Ridley would be 3rd, if he fixes his problems.

manxman2601 said:

You can hardly criticise the objectivity of stats by citing a highlight video. The very nature of a highlight video is that it shows a players best bits.

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You can absolutely criticize the objectivity of stats in a sport that is entirely contextual. Football depends upon 11 guys doing their job, not one making plays in a vacuum, and using stats as if they were just a matter of individuals winning individual match-ups in no way reflects the reality of what takes place on the field. Merely citing numbers as though they do reflect what's going on is taking a fraction of what happens and using it as if it represented the whole. The stats that matter in football are the team stats, and even they are intimately tied to the context of each game, so I am not really sure how useful they are when all is said and done.



*I agree that highlight clips are subjective.

Ivan said:

You can absolutely criticize the objectivity of stats in a sport that is entirely contextual. Football depends upon 11 guys doing their job, not one making plays in a vacuum, and using stats as if they were just a matter of individuals winning individual match-ups in no way reflects the reality of what takes place on the field. Merely citing numbers as though they do reflect what's going on is taking a fraction of what happens and using it as if it represented the whole. The stats that matter in football are the team stats, and even they are intimately tied to the context of each game, so I am not really sure how useful they are when all is said and done.



*I agree that highlight clips are subjective.

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I agree. That's why I qualified what I said with "by citing a highlights video".

Anyway, welcome to the Brady6 thread. /gogetspopcorn