Pondering the "Patriot Way"...

Tunescribe said:

Cross-posting this from an earlier thread; here's my take:

The "Patriot Way," as defined by the Patriots signing ONLY players of impeccable character with no baggage whatsoever, is a tired old figment of the media's imagination. The real "Patriot Way" is team-first come hell or high water, player 53 being just as important to the overall WINNING picture as player 1. BB gave birth to it in 2001 and NOTHING has changed.

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And as soon as you put something else first, such as being suspected of murdering your friend, you are gone.

Something has indeed changed. Sure, in the past, the team looked the other way when star players (like Law) were in touchy situations. However, things have come a long way when we knowingly draft players with character and legal issues. Personally, and it is a personal opinion, I don't think that Hernandez or Dennard would have been drafted by the patriots a few years ago. I'm not sure Gronk's off the field behavior would be have tolerated.

So, yes. patriots have changed.

Folks have suggested that the "patriot way" is do whatever it takes to win. Players are required to produce on the filed, and their behavior off the field is irrelevant. IMHO, that is the RAIDER way, not the patriot way.

PatsFanSince74 said:

No. It's a fair criticism.

The Patriots may not have coined the term, but there is no doubt that the Franchise under Kraft has communicated a set of standards and expectations that include things like doing nothing to embarrass the team or NFL, eschewing the "star" system and never putting one player, even a future HOFer, over the Team, making it known that any player can be cut for creating locker room or other problems, and stuff like the SB XXXVI team introduction vs. individual introductions (thanks to the poster above for reminding us of that) etc. That all pretty much adds up to what the media coined as "The Patriot Way." I kind of liked it actually.

So, yeah, it's fair to ask out loud what happened to that when you have a player like Hernandez who seems to have thrown it all to the winds, a guy like Gronk who occupies a lot of space on the pages of tabloids in Boston and New York when he seems to have a lot of other things to worry about, and when you "experiment" with the player formerly known as Ocho Cinco. Even the addition of Tebow raised eyebrows, but I don't think that would be fair until we see how he works out.

I don't like the mediots any more than you do, but sometimes they accidentally get something right.

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All I gotta say is: What the hell did Bill ever see in Stomper Meriwather?

captain stone said:

All I gotta say is: What the hell did Bill ever see in Stomper Meriwather?

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Weak draft class and a need at safety. That's about it. I can't remember how many other safeties were taken ahead of Meriweather that year.

mgteich said:

Something has indeed changed. Sure, in the past, the team looked the other way when star players (like Law) were in touchy situations. However, things have come a long way when we knowingly draft players with character and legal issues. Personally, and it is a personal opinion, I don't think that Hernandez or Dennard would have been drafted by the patriots a few years ago. I'm not sure Gronk's off the field behavior would be have tolerated.

So, yes. patriots have changed.

Folks have suggested that the "patriot way" is do whatever it takes to win. Players are required to produce on the filed, and their behavior off the field is irrelevant. IMHO, that is the RAIDER way, not the patriot way.

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While I agree that the Raider way should not be the Patriot way, I think you emphasize the opposite too much. The Patriot Way was about the here and now, where even if you had some trouble in your life, when you come to the Patriots your off field activities that resulted in trouble are done! Your off field life will not result in things that get you arrested and negative attention to the organization. You will take your on field job extremely seriously and you will take your representation of the Patriots brand to the public seriously. Sure, A Dennard had trouble but is there anything to suggest that since then he has been a problem off field? Aaron Hernandez, has he ever been arrested for violence prior to being drafted and most especially since the Patriots brought him aboard? AH never gave me the sense he was a boy scout but has there been any official reports that said AH was in trouble with the law prior? Maybe I lacked awareness but prior to this, AH, for all his life choices, had not publicly put the Patriot brand in jeopardy. But now because he appears to have done something sickening, boy we should have all known! and drafted John The Apostle out of Liberty University??? Football is a 'way out' for quite a few guys, guys who may have had troubled youths/gotten in trouble with the law. They should never have the opportunity with the Patriots to grow up, to make a better life??? All I can say is I never thought the Patriot Way was not drafting someone like A Dennard or A Hernandez. But I always did think, and still do, that some guys who are on an AH path don't end up on that path because the Patriots organization gives them an environment and gives them boundaries that point them in the right direction, a direction that otherwise could lead to what happened yesterday.

As for the on field product, to me it is too high a standard to believe the Patriots or the Patriot Way could equal passing on anyone that had trouble in their youth/prior to the draft, was far from a model citizen. I'd certainly been out, I'd bet some others here would too. There's a reason why the thug-ster teams of college frequently were vying for the championship. Their ability can translate to the field. If the Patriots drafted from the stance of no one can be in trouble (Dennard), imho, we've got a serious uphill battle to be a competitive organization.

Hernandez was a 1st round talent drafted in the 4th because of off-the-field issues. I think that this would have been much less likely to happen 5-7 years ago. Folks are not criticizing the change as much as simply pointing out that a change has happened. The patriots made a good business decision in drafting Hernandez. His off-the-field issues were factored in; after all, he was drafted in the 4th rather than earlier.

It is NOT that the patriots should have known that Hernandez was a loser. The patriots knowingly took the chance on a player that others would not take a chance on. This worked out with Dennard. Dennard's issues were mild compared to that of Hernandez.

Reports about Hernandez background piling up | ProFootballTalk

TheBostonStraggler said:

While I agree that the Raider way should not be the Patriot way, I think you emphasize the opposite too much. The Patriot Way was about the here and now, where even if you had some trouble in your life, when you come to the Patriots your off field activities that resulted in trouble are done! Your off field life will not result in things that get you arrested and negative attention to the organization. You will take your on field job extremely seriously and you will take your representation of the Patriots brand to the public seriously. Sure, A Dennard had trouble but is there anything to suggest that since then he has been a problem off field? Aaron Hernandez, has he ever been arrested for violence prior to being drafted and most especially since the Patriots brought him aboard? AH never gave me the sense he was a boy scout but has there been any official reports that said AH was in trouble with the law prior? Maybe I lacked awareness but prior to this, AH, for all his life choices, had not publicly put the Patriot brand in jeopardy. But now because he appears to have done something sickening, boy we should have all known! and drafted John The Apostle out of Liberty University??? Football is a 'way out' for quite a few guys, guys who may have had troubled youths/gotten in trouble with the law. They should never have the opportunity with the Patriots to grow up, to make a better life??? All I can say is I never thought the Patriot Way was not drafting someone like A Dennard or A Hernandez. But I always did think, and still do, that some guys who are on an AH path don't end up on that path because the Patriots organization gives them an environment and gives them boundaries that point them in the right direction, a direction that otherwise could lead to what happened yesterday.

As for the on field product, to me it is too high a standard to believe the Patriots or the Patriot Way could equal passing on anyone that had trouble in their youth/prior to the draft, was far from a model citizen. I'd certainly been out, I'd bet some others here would too. There's a reason why the thug-ster teams of college frequently were vying for the championship. Their ability can translate to the field. If the Patriots drafted from the stance of no one can be in trouble (Dennard), imho, we've got a serious uphill battle to be a competitive organization.

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supafly said:

Weak draft class and a need at safety. That's about it. I can't remember how many other safeties were taken ahead of Meriweather that year.

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If Bill wanted a Safety with his 1st-rounder, then he should've drafted Eric Weddle.

I don't fault the Maroney & CJack picks from the prior year, because both were 2 of the best available players
at those picks (though I preferred DeAngelo Williams at RB, LaMa was still my #2), and neither of them
had reputations of idiocracy like the Stomper did. That dummy had no business wearing a Patriots uniform,
from both a football/value and a citizen standpoint, and Bill should've known that.

Meriweather was named to TWO probowls in his time with the patriots. I would have liked the same from some of our other choices.

In any case, Meriweather was hardly a bust. In most re-drafts, Meriweather was taken even higher than we drafted him. It was a lousy draft. To get a probowler at the end of the first was a bargain.

captain stone said:

If Bill wanted a Safety with his 1st-rounder, then he should've drafted Eric Weddle.

I don't fault the Maroney & CJack picks from the prior year, because both were 2 of the best available players
at those picks (though I preferred DeAngelo Williams at RB, LaMa was still my #2), and neither of them
had reputations of idiocracy like the Stomper did. That dummy had no business wearing a Patriots uniform,
from both a football/value and a citizen standpoint, and Bill should've known that.

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Do fans need to hold the Patriots organization accountable for AH?

Spygate was one thing...but now murder? What next a bonus to a child molester?

Who invented this **** concept "Patriot Way"?

In response to some of the previous back and forth discussion, I suppose the question would be which philosophy should the Patriots have in regards to possible questions about character and off field issues about a player:

- Drop his value accordingly (e.g., Hernadez from a 1st to a 4th round pick; Dennard from a 3rd to a 7th)

- Remove him completely from your draft board


Then, how far do you extend that? Do you not sign a Rodney Harrison as a free agent because he has a reputation for being the NFL's dirtiest player?

mgteich said:

Meriweather was named to TWO probowls in his time with the patriots. I would have liked the same from some of our other choices.

In any case, Meriweather was hardly a bust. In most re-drafts, Meriweather was taken even higher than we drafted him. It was a lousy draft. To get a probowler at the end of the first was a bargain.

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Stomper became a "Pro-Bowler" after how many other Safeties excused themselves? 3, 4?

So douche and squeaky are killing them on the handful of bad/questionable characters they have brought in over the last decade. Yet only one of them executed someone, gotta love Boston sports media hyperbole

Also supposedly the Pats should have covertly followed Hernandez for at least a few weeks before they decided on the extension, according to felger.

jmt57 said:

In response to some of the previous back and forth discussion, I suppose the question would be which philosophy should the Patriots have in regards to possible questions about character and off field issues about a player:

- Drop his value accordingly (e.g., Hernadez from a 1st to a 4th round pick; Dennard from a 3rd to a 7th)

- Remove him completely from your draft board


Then, how far do you extend that? Do you not sign a Rodney Harrison as a free agent because he has a reputation for being the NFL's dirtiest player?

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Dropping value accordingly is in almost every case the way to go, and that should've been the case with
Meriweather too: had he still been available when Kareem Brown was taken at the end of the 4th round,
I think I would've been OK with it.

In the case of Rodney, I believe that he signed a fairly team-friendly deal in 2003, so the risk of losing
cap space would've been mitigated if another suspension or two came down the pike.

I seem to remember the "Patriot Way" was a Bruschi creation, a way of describing what made this franchise better than every other.

I believe that only one the first year, and none the second.

In any case, a player who is even close to probowl quality in his second and third years is NOT a bust.

captain stone said:

Stomper became a "Pro-Bowler" after how many other Safeties excused themselves? 3, 4?

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mgteich said:

Hernandez was a 1st round talent drafted in the 4th because of off-the-field issues. I think that this would have been much less likely to happen 5-7 years ago. Folks are not criticizing the change as much as simply pointing out that a change has happened. The patriots made a good business decision in drafting Hernandez. His off-the-field issues were factored in; after all, he was drafted in the 4th rather than earlier.

It is NOT that the patriots should have known that Hernandez was a loser. The patriots knowingly took the chance on a player that others would not take a chance on. This worked out with Dennard. Dennard's issues were mild compared to that of Hernandez.

Reports about Hernandez background piling up | ProFootballTalk

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I'll acquiesce to your better knowledge of AH's red flags prior to the draft if you have info. However, Dennard was arrested for assaulting a police officer. AH had admitted smoking pot and was generally though of as not being a model citizen (which included half the Florida's teams). So I disagree that Dennard's red flags were worse than AH. As far as lighting up, I'd bet money half the guys on the Patriots and in the NFL smoked it up a few times (or more) in college. Is pot smoking something the Patriots didn't allow before but it is negotiable now?

Me, I never looked at the Patriots of 2001 - 2005 and thought 'these guys are model citizens. They're all good enough for my sister'. That is just my sense of it and not quantified......but is that the case? Can you quantify your stance with examples of where the Patriots' prior drafting indicate it would not draft an AH or Dennard? I think the only instance of outright draft modesty I remember is Peters. And he was drafted but was dropped because his red flags involved a subject matter that in the public is considered too bad. If Dennard had been accused of assault on a woman, I suspect he is not drafted, same with AH.

Btw, not aimed at you just in general, I HATE that I am comparing AH and Dennard. I know their is perspective and foundation for it in our conversation yet Dennard was a young (aka stupid) guy who went to a bar, testosterone flowed, girls being all a flutter over demonstration of machismo, and he lost his cool to a uncertain degree. That and AH have no real business being spoken about in the same breath except the generic conversation of draft red flags.
AH for 3 years was a very productive guy on the field, no one seems to have known he was doing anything legally wrong off the field, had nothing but pot smoking/failed drug test(s) on his college resume, had no arrests for violence in his adult life (maybe pre adult too?), and by all reports went about his job extremely hard.....had even been suspended or kicked out of a college game for fighting?? But the Patriots should never draft a guy like that given these modest level of red flags??? And if they do they have changed? I just don't see it....

I'm fine with the draft of AH. I'm just pointing out that there were issues and that he considered a major character risk.


Teams had concerns about Aaron Hernandez in 2010 draft

TheBostonStraggler said:

I'll acquiesce to your better knowledge of AH's red flags prior to the draft if you have info. However, Dennard was arrested for assaulting a police officer. AH had admitted smoking pot and was generally though of as not being a model citizen (which included half the Florida's teams). So I disagree that Dennard's red flags were worse than AH. As far as lighting up, I'd bet money half the guys on the Patriots and in the NFL smoked it up a few times (or more) in college. Is pot smoking something the Patriots didn't allow before but it is negotiable now?

Me, I never looked at the Patriots of 2001 - 2005 and thought 'these guys are model citizens. They're all good enough for my sister'. That is just my sense of it and not quantified......but is that the case? Can you quantify your stance with examples of where the Patriots' prior drafting indicate it would not draft an AH or Dennard? I think the only instance of outright draft modesty I remember is Peters. And he was drafted but was dropped because his red flags involved a subject matter that in the public is considered too bad. If Dennard had been accused of assault on a woman, I suspect he is not drafted, same with AH.

Btw, not aimed at you just in general, I HATE that I am comparing AH and Dennard. I know their is perspective and foundation for it in our conversation yet Dennard was a young (aka stupid) guy who went to a bar, testosterone flowed, girls being all a flutter over demonstration of machismo, and he lost his cool to a uncertain degree. That and AH have no real business being spoken about in the same breath except the generic conversation of draft red flags.
AH for 3 years was a very productive guy on the field, no one seems to have known he was doing anything legally wrong off the field, had nothing but pot smoking/failed drug test(s) on his college resume, had no arrests for violence in his adult life (maybe pre adult too?), and by all reports went about his job extremely hard.....had even been suspended or kicked out of a college game for fighting?? But the Patriots should never draft a guy like that given these modest level of red flags??? And if they do they have changed? I just don't see it....

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mgteich said:

I'm fine with the draft of AH. I'm just pointing out that there were issues and that he considered a major character risk.


Teams had concerns about Aaron Hernandez in 2010 draft

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Agreed. Where I take issue is in the idea that selecting AH in the draft equals the Patriots deciding to be un-Patriot like. Is there instances in the first half of BB's reign that show guys with red flags were avoided at all costs? Or did value then, just as value now, trump everything (with the exception of SERIOUS red flags like.....ummm....a murder charge)? Quite honestly the only thing I remember about the Patriots' drafting back then is that they wanted guys who had proven to work hard at their job, proven to put the success of the team high, could be coached, and had a level of football smarts. Do I recall that wrong? If not is there instances now that say the Patriots do not do that?