The Official LB Jamie Collins is an Insane Athlete Thread.

belicheck010405 said:

Should have known that someone would have tried to compare Collins to Crable. Thankfully, Collins has a much stronger base than Crable.

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Are we allowed to compare him to Chad Jackson?

sieglo said:

are we allowed to compare him to chad jackson?

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no!

.........

BelichickFan said:

Not sure where that came from but there is no comparison in the "explosion".

VJ : Collins 41.5, Crable 28
LJ : Collins 11'7", Crable 9'3"

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FWIW Gary Guyton had a 40" vertical and a 10'6" Broad Jump and ran a 4.47 40yd dash

allllllllllllllllllllll aboard!

HYPE train leaving the station, brakes have been replaced with rockets, this train aint stopping til it crashes.

PatsWickedPissah said:

Hi there! Debbie Downer checking in.
I remember all those "insane" threads about Patrick Chung we used to have here.

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Chung and Meriwether are still great athletes. It's just that BB wants Safeties that can diagnose quickly, set the defense, and also contribute to the pass and run defense. All the surviving Safeties offer that to some degree, with various amounts of athletic ability, and size. Adrian at one time had a surplus of both, but BB is bringing him in to be the coverage LB, and long sought Big Nickle, and to captain and steady, this very young secondary.

James Sanders had the mental aspects, that Belichick seeks for his safeties, it was just that he didn't have quite the size and ahtletic ability to shine in the NFL.

Re: Re: The Official LB Jamie Collins is an Insane Athlete Thread.

BradyFTW! said:

Yes, he played one year at each position, but the important part is that they were very productive years. For the versatility that Belichick demands out of his OLBs/DEs, I'd rather he have a standout year at 2 positions than 2 standout years at 1 position. You don't rack up 10 sacks, especially on such a bad team, without having pretty good technique.

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Do not get me wrong, I love the pick. Just moderating my enthusiasm until I actually read about and see his on the field play at the nfl level.

Nunchucks said:

My only point is that he has only played a year at LB and a year at DE. He has a lot of skills to learn. Having success because of ones athletic prowess is awesome, but in the NFL, that has to be combined with technique. Collins needs to show he is ABLE to do more than just be more athletic than his opposition, he needs to show that he can incorporate the skills necessary to play the position at a high level.

I love the guys athleticism, but he is so raw that it is a little worrisome. And I am not denigrating his success in college, but we all know college success does not equal NFL success.

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No, no, you are perfectly correct in what you say above. You only have to look at his highlight films to see that most of his great plays come DESPITE a complete lack of any technique. The fact he's never had 2 seasons in a row at the same position make that lack of technique understandable. But if we know one thing, the Pats have a coaching staff that excels at teaching. I understand his limitations, but it just makes me more excited to see what this kid can do, when his freakish athleticism is matched with good technique and professional schemes.

My comment was only made because of the inference you made that he wasn't productive in college.

Ozymandias said:

Beyond that, I notice something rather interesting. As I mentioned prior, Collins seems to be good against the read-option and athletic QBs in general. The Patriots' schedule could have factored into this pick as well:

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I noticed that as well. I don't think read-option specifically is a consideration for this year (only Skins and Niners really do it often enough to warrant scheming against it), but I think it reflects well on his ability to diagnose and react.

To the broader question of how Collins would be used, Belichick starts a player somewhere and lets them grow into other roles. I've heard he will start as a linebacker, which isn't overly surprising but starting him as a DE on passing downs would have been the easiest assignment to pick up. As a LB, I'm hopeful that signals a greater role for the LBs as the 4th, 5th and even 6th rushers in sub packages.

But if we see Mayo chasing motioning backs and Hightower/Collins dropping into shallow zones all the time, I'm not sure why you bother drafting these guys. Get cheap vet LBs and spend your cap on DEs/CBs instead. Use them instead to attack in unpredictable ways and your corners only have to hold up for 2 seconds and any downfield throws will be off the back foot giving your safeties time to make plays.

So while I agree that the LBs and DEs seem to be evolving into a unit that can handle the RG3's of the world, I'm more interested in seeing how effective they are in making Manning poop himself in the 4th quarter.

Pepper Johnson will be a great mentor for this kid. He will end up being the 'steal' of the draft in a couple of years.

AzPatsFan said:

Chung and Meriwether are still great athletes. It's just that BB wants Safeties that can diagnose quickly, set the defense, and also contribute to the pass and run defense. All the surviving Safeties offer that to some degree, with various amounts of athletic ability, and size. Adrian at one time had a surplus of both, but BB is bringing him in to be the coverage LB, and long sought Big Nickle, and to captain and steady, this very young secondary.

James Sanders had the mental aspects, that Belichick seeks for his safeties, it was just that he didn't have quite the size and ahtletic ability to shine in the NFL.

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Neither Merriwether nor Chung was a great athlete by NFL standards. That was always the issue with Merriwether. He wasn't athletically gifted. IMO even in his inconsistent, often shabby play he maximized his talent by compensating for lack of physical gifts through tougness and a killer attitude, I am not approving of the morality of his head shots. He was overdrafted by the Pats. Poor decision by BB. Check out Merriwether's combine numbers. For a small man (190 lbs) he had poor change of direction skills (4.4 ss, 7.1 3 cone) and mediocre leaping ability (35 inches) 9' 3'' broad jump. All of that was reflected in his onfield safety play. If you recall he was supposed to have been drafted to play cb. Then he showed up for minicamp and immediately they realized he couldn't and put him at FS.

A far as Chung, he was fast for his size, but not a great leaper (see regular season game at Foxboro vs Giants in 2011 when the long pass to Giant TE in closing minute went right over his hand) (34" VJ at combine) and simply couldn't stay healthy.

Metaphors said:

To the broader question of how Collins would be used, Belichick starts a player somewhere and lets them grow into other roles. I've heard he will start as a linebacker, which isn't overly surprising but starting him as a DE on passing downs would have been the easiest assignment to pick up. As a LB, I'm hopeful that signals a greater role for the LBs as the 4th, 5th and even 6th rushers in sub packages.

But if we see Mayo chasing motioning backs and Hightower/Collins dropping into shallow zones all the time, I'm not sure why you bother drafting these guys. Get cheap vet LBs and spend your cap on DEs/CBs instead. Use them instead to attack in unpredictable ways and your corners only have to hold up for 2 seconds and any downfield throws will be off the back foot giving your safeties time to make plays.

So while I agree that the LBs and DEs seem to be evolving into a unit that can handle the RG3's of the world, I'm more interested in seeing how effective they are in making Manning poop himself in the 4th quarter.

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This team has been hamstrung defensively for the past five or six years -- going back to the 2007 Super Bowl run, really -- by the lack of versatility and/or athleticism at the linebacker position.

They had great success in the 2001-2004 period going five and six deep at linebacker and moving guys around to disguise defenses. Was McGinest rushing or dropping? Was Bruschi spying the back or blitzing up the middle? They used guys like Phifer and Don Davis to drop and handle the deep middle on blitzes and rush games.

They have good talent now but Collins, if he pans out, could help in the Manning department in many ways. He might turn into a good sub rusher, or he might be a guy who can jam backs and tight ends at the line and run with them. Or he could be a Phifer type who is a high-volume tackler and a big, fast, rangy body in space.

I question the pick for a lot of reasons -- I don't love the way he looks on tape -- but I get the reasoning for going for that KIND of player. Physically, he's very similar to a Clay Matthews type, a pass-rusher who runs like an overgrown safety, and you can do a lot with that kind of player. He just doesn't look as fierce and determined as Matthews.

Don Kipines said:

Physically, he's very similar to a Clay Matthews type, a pass-rusher who runs like an overgrown safety, and you can do a lot with that kind of player. He just doesn't look as fierce and determined as Matthews.

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I don't see it. Matthews is pretty close to an overgrown safety. It took a lot of "weight training" to get him up to 240 and he seems to fluctuate between slender and blown up. Collins is a legit 250 who could add weight if he wanted (but I'm not sure that he should). Matthews looks to run around blockers while Collins can stack-n-shed as well.

Basically Matthews is in an ideal position since:
a) The Packers just ask him to knife in the backfield, playing the run on his way to the QB. He only moves backward as an infrequent changeup.
b) He gets to play criminally poor OLs in his division (more than half his sacks in the last 2 years are against CHI and MIN)

Put Collins in GB and he probably wouldn't create enough backfield disruption to protect their gambling backend. Put Matthews in NE and he would get run on and blocked out of position to the point where he would become a situational (with a smaller bank account) guy.

The Packers took a guy that fits their scheme and they use him well. I'm hoping the Pats have a corresponding (though different) plan for maximizing the skills Collins brings to the table.

Don Kipines said:

This team has been hamstrung defensively for the past five or six years -- going back to the 2007 Super Bowl run, really -- by the lack of versatility and/or athleticism at the linebacker position.

They had great success in the 2001-2004 period going five and six deep at linebacker and moving guys around to disguise defenses. Was McGinest rushing or dropping? Was Bruschi spying the back or blitzing up the middle? They used guys like Phifer and Don Davis to drop and handle the deep middle on blitzes and rush games.

They have good talent now but Collins, if he pans out, could help in the Manning department in many ways. He might turn into a good sub rusher, or he might be a guy who can jam backs and tight ends at the line and run with them. Or he could be a Phifer type who is a high-volume tackler and a big, fast, rangy body in space.

I question the pick for a lot of reasons -- I don't love the way he looks on tape -- but I get the reasoning for going for that KIND of player. Physically, he's very similar to a Clay Matthews type, a pass-rusher who runs like an overgrown safety, and you can do a lot with that kind of player. He just doesn't look as fierce and determined as Matthews.

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Kinda wonder if Jake Bequette is a bust or not...

zipster9 said:

Kinda wonder if Jake Bequette is a bust or not...

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Yes. Guys who contribute literally zero as rookies do not go on to have productive NFL careers. Sometimes you'll see exceptions to this with UDFAs who end up catching on down the line with other teams, or with guys who were injured for their rookie seasons, but as a general rule, it holds up. As a result, I've pretty much already written Bequette off.

BradyFTW! said:

Yes. Guys who contribute literally zero as rookies do not go on to have productive NFL careers. Sometimes you'll see exceptions to this with UDFAs who end up catching on down the line with other teams, or with guys who were injured for their rookie seasons, but as a general rule, it holds up. As a result, I've pretty much already written Bequette off.

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This is an interesting viewpoint, though I couldn't disagree more. Bequette has excellent talent and will be a productive member of the Patriots front 4 for years to come. It's really all up to him if he's gonna be a bust. BB has often said the jump from year one to year two is always the most important. Lets see what he does in training camp before we call him a bust. The fact that he won several practice players of the week, says to me he has an excellent work ethic and didn't sit around sulking when he wasn't dressing/playing.

I'm excited to see where he is in his progression.

I think BradyFTW! is right on this. The UFA are much more likely to contribute in year 2 or 3 after a slow start than the higher draft pick with a slow start.

Troy Brown
Law Firm
Mike Wright

There must be some, but I can not think of a 3rd round or higher pick that had a season like Bequette had and then had success. I still cheer for his success so long as he wears the Patriot Jersey, but I doubt its fruition.

To judge Bequette permanently off of his rookie year is to misunderstand his situation. He was not ready for the NFL from a physical or technical standpoint.

In college, Bequette was Clay Matthews. Scream off the edge, motor running hot, and hammer the quarterback. Now he has to reinvent his game in several ways. He has to become Rob Ninkovich instead. With a year of work under his belt we can see whether he has made progress in this area.

My guess is that Bequette will find his way in the NFL eventually. But given the sheer number of edge players we have accumulated, I suspect it will be somewhere else.

Get it shawtaay said:

To judge Bequette permanently off of his rookie year is to misunderstand his situation. He was not ready for the NFL from a physical or technical standpoint.

In college, Bequette was Clay Matthews. Scream off the edge, motor running hot, and hammer the quarterback. Now he has to reinvent his game in several ways. He has to become Rob Ninkovich instead. With a year of work under his belt we can see whether he has made progress in this area.

My guess is that Bequette will find his way in the NFL eventually. But given the sheer number of edge players we have accumulated, I suspect it will be somewhere else.

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So, what's the story on Jermaine Cunningham? Another pass rusher? At one point, last season, he looked very good, and then, nothing. Before last season, he was a total non-factor.

Don Kipines said:

This team has been hamstrung defensively for the past five or six years -- going back to the 2007 Super Bowl run, really -- by the lack of versatility and/or athleticism at the linebacker position.

They had great success in the 2001-2004 period going five and six deep at linebacker and moving guys around to disguise defenses. Was McGinest rushing or dropping? Was Bruschi spying the back or blitzing up the middle? They used guys like Phifer and Don Davis to drop and handle the deep middle on blitzes and rush games.

They have good talent now but Collins, if he pans out, could help in the Manning department in many ways. He might turn into a good sub rusher, or he might be a guy who can jam backs and tight ends at the line and run with them. Or he could be a Phifer type who is a high-volume tackler and a big, fast, rangy body in space.

I question the pick for a lot of reasons -- I don't love the way he looks on tape -- but I get the reasoning for going for that KIND of player. Physically, he's very similar to a Clay Matthews type, a pass-rusher who runs like an overgrown safety, and you can do a lot with that kind of player. He just doesn't look as fierce and determined as Matthews.

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Please, don't talk about Clay matthews, as the Patriots had the chance to draft him and pass on him! DUDs from the trade: DariusButler, BrandonTate.

zipster9 said:

Please, don't talk about Clay matthews, as the Patriots had the chance to draft him and pass on him! DUDs from the trade: DariusButler, BrandonTate.

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If we don't trade out of drafting him we don't get Gronk