Felger and Reiss go at it over Welker

Reiss stumbling over the incentives, not sure he knew what they were exactly. Also Reiss didn't know the timeline of when Amendola was signed. Not sure I trust Reiss on what he knew and what he didn't know.

naF staP said:

Reiss stumbling over the incentives, not sure he knew what they were exactly. Also Reiss didn't know the timeline of when Amendola was signed. Not sure I trust Reiss on what he knew and what he didn't know.

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You seem to have made up your mind to blame the Patriots on this without fully considering the big picture. Go back and read posts 152, 154, 155, 156, and 158. Then listen to Kraft's interview from yesterday. Welker's agent is desperately trying to deflect blame for causing this fiasco.

It's over, get over it. All we can do is hope Amendola stays healthy and Donald Jones is the next Greg Jennings. The key is to keep moving forward and focusing on either adding another WR through free agency and the draft.

I still think the Patriots made the better move by going with the younger Amendola, he can kinda do what Wes Welker does, but he's taller and can burn you on the outside.

Also I still think Mike Reiss is a damn good reporter and we are lucky to have him in New England.

This will go on and on, back and forth, for at least the next 6 months.

But there's no doubt that Welker's agent misread the market. It's clear the market valued him more in the $5 to $6M range than the $8 to $10M range of outside receivers he was hoping to get. There wasn't a lot of interest either; even Welker admitted he was the one to call the Broncos. In the same article where Dunn claimed the Patriots didn't want Welker, Curran also mentions a discussion with Dunn last year where he wanted $20M guaranteed and had to settle for $12M, which is really only $6M guaranteed since the second year isn't fully guaranteed.

Dunn and Welker had 3 days to figure out their value on the market, then didn't. They clearly knew Amendola was a factor. Maybe they were hoping Amendola had been re-signed by the Rams or someone else, which would have put them in a great spot with leverage. I honestly don't know.

So it really wasn't about Denver's offer vs. New England's offer, because that offer wasn't even an option until New England had to move on and Welker was left scrambling to find a team. It's really about the offer Dunn had in his mind, the 4 years for $32M and $20M guaranteed he spoke to Curran about last year vs. the 2 years, $12M with $6M guaranteed.

For those who are so quick to take the agent's side of the story... remember, an agent is essentially a lawyer. The only way to tell if they're lying is if their lips are moving.

On the Felger thing... I keep waiting for this guy to "jump the shark" (also waiting for the term "jump the shark" to jump the shark). This guy is soooo over exposed. He's on 4 or 5 different shows on Comcast, but the only sport he really knows (and likes, apparently) is hockey. I just don't get the appeal. It cracks me up how the guys over at SoSH think he's legit because he plays the whole contrarian angle, yet they hate Borges, even though it's his act that Felger stole. Making crap up and going after the owners of any of the local teams gives him credibility with some people, not with me. His show is just unlistenable, without even bringing up the mouse sitting to his left. Just awful.

Reiss > Felger

Especially with regards to journalistic integrity.

Tunescribe said:

You seem to have made up your mind to blame the Patriots on this without fully considering the big picture. Go back and read posts 152, 154, 155, 156, and 158. Then listen to Kraft's interview from yesterday. Welker's agent is desperately trying to deflect blame for causing this fiasco.

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Why, when the Patriots have played hard ball like this before. It's just a spin by the Patriots. It's frustrating on all levels as a fan. They believe it's team over any one player (except TFB) and when they take a stand the don't budge. I find it funny others are believing otherwise. The Pats got butt hurt that Welker didn't sign a contract before last season. It's the strong arm approach tactic they seem to use. They didn't think Welker would leave so they stuck to their guns when all it would have taken was a little more money... respect.

Now they lost their most dependable player and productive player, outside of TFB, due to lack of respect, ego and strong arm tactics. We have seen this before!

naF staP said:

Why, when the Patriots have played hard ball like this before. It's just a spin by the Patriots. It's frustrating on all levels as a fan. They believe it's team over any one player (except TFB) and when they take a stand the don't budge. I find it funny others are believing otherwise. The Pats got butt hurt that Welker didn't sign a contract before last season. It's the strong arm approach tactic they seem to use. They didn't think Welker would leave so they stuck to their guns when all it would have taken was a little more money... respect.

Now they lost their most dependable player and productive player, outside of TFB, due to lack of respect, ego and strong arm tactics. We have seen this before!

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So as a "fan" you are frustrated because the Patriots put the team over individual players and play hardball? What exactly are you a "fan" of?

naF staP said:

Why, when the Patriots have played hard ball like this before. It's just a spin by the Patriots. It's frustrating on all levels as a fan. They believe it's team over any one player (except TFB) and when they take a stand the don't budge. I find it funny others are believing otherwise. The Pats got butt hurt that Welker didn't sign a contract before last season. It's the strong arm approach tactic they seem to use. They didn't think Welker would leave so they stuck to their guns when all it would have taken was a little more money... respect.

Now they lost their most dependable player and productive player, outside of TFB, due to lack of respect, ego and strong arm tactics. We have seen this before!

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This "respect" thing is funny. They signed him to a large contract, at the time, when they traded for him, and everyone thought it was too much. He out performs that contract, and they offer him more than the market. He declines the offer and they pay him the franchise amount, again, MUCH more than market. Then they offer him more than Denver did... yup, they disrespected him, alright....

naF staP said:

Why, when the Patriots have played hard ball like this before. It's just a spin by the Patriots. It's frustrating on all levels as a fan. They believe it's team over any one player (except TFB) and when they take a stand the don't budge. I find it funny others are believing otherwise. The Pats got butt hurt that Welker didn't sign a contract before last season. It's the strong arm approach tactic they seem to use. They didn't think Welker would leave so they stuck to their guns when all it would have taken was a little more money... respect.

Now they lost their most dependable player and productive player, outside of TFB, due to lack of respect, ego and strong arm tactics. We have seen this before!

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Why can't you see it was Wes's agent who misjudged the market and not the Pats? This has been true going back more than a year. He was a fool turning down what they offered before the franchise tag. It's not "strong-arming," it's just smart business.

BSR said:

So as a "fan" you are frustrated because the Patriots put the team over individual players and play hardball? What exactly are you a "fan" of?

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You gotta work with the players, you cant take the dictatorship role and expect to win SB's. Players aren't taking less to play with the Patriots anymore, those days are gone because players won't play for a team that continues with the take it or leave it attitude. And why should the players take it.. there are teams out there willing to pay a little more to keep their star players. Players that make the team go. The Patriots assigning "value" to players and not budging gets you handfulls of players that are less talented which ends up losing to teams that are more talented because they pay their top players to stay. Things like this sends bad signs to current players and what could be future Pats players. So now we say the Patriots continue to get quantity over quality.

naF staP said:

You gotta work with the players, you cant take the dictatorship role and expect to win SB's. Players aren't taking less to play with the Patriots anymore, those days are gone because players won't play for a team that continues with the take it or leave it attitude. And why should the players take it.. there are teams out there willing to pay a little more to keep their star players. Players that make the team go. The Patriots assigning "value" to players and not budging gets you handfulls of players that are less talented which ends up losing to teams that are more talented because they pay their top players to stay. Things like this sends bad signs to current players and what could be future Pats players. So now we say the Patriots continue to get quantity over quality.

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What evidence do you have for this? Its fantasy. There is no rebellion. There aren't players avoiding the Patriots. Its been the same for the past decade. There are some players will to play for less there are most that won't. This has always been the case and was the same formula that has worked for them since 2001. All those low priced FA that the team signed here in 2001 didn't come because of the "Patriot Way". At that point they were thought to be a bottom feeder team. They came here because BB recognized that the market undervalued these guys and he gave them competitive offers.

naF staP said:

Why, when the Patriots have played hard ball like this before. It's just a spin by the Patriots. It's frustrating on all levels as a fan. They believe it's team over any one player (except TFB) and when they take a stand the don't budge. I find it funny others are believing otherwise. The Pats got butt hurt that Welker didn't sign a contract before last season. It's the strong arm approach tactic they seem to use. They didn't think Welker would leave so they stuck to their guns when all it would have taken was a little more money... respect.

Now they lost their most dependable player and productive player, outside of TFB, due to lack of respect, ego and strong arm tactics. We have seen this before!

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"They believe it's team over any one player (except TFB) and when they take a stand the don't budge."

Wow you ARE clueless. Referencing your sole exception the ONE player on the team (in the league, really) who is playing for HALF his market value!

Nice one.

I guess you didn;t hear how they extended Gronk, Hernandez, Mayo, Wilfork and others for long-term generous contracts well before they had to.

BSR said:

So as a "fan" you are frustrated because the Patriots put the team over individual players and play hardball? What exactly are you a "fan" of?

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I'm a fan of my favorite team winning SB's. Isn't that the goal? To win SB's you gotta keep your best players. Welker wasn't looking for anything out of sight here. There was a different market these past few days then what there was just a year or two ago and Welker adjusted for that. The Pats were set on a take it or leave it deal, one that favored them and they wouldn't budge. Kraft came out early to start to start the public campaign by saying they want Welker there until his playing days are over. What he failed to tell the public is that it had to be on their terms.. No budging!

Look at what these incentives were... Per Breer on NFL.com

The Patriots' final offer was two years for $10 million. Incentives could have pushed the deal to $16 million. The offer to Welker included $1 million incentives for making All-Pro each year, $1 million incentives for 1,500 yards receiving each year, $1 million for being a Pro Bowl starter in 2014 and $1 million for 1,300 yards in 2014. According to the source, Welker's camp then suggested something in the range of the two-year, $14 million that the Titans offered the receiver, with incentives to push it to $16 million.
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Those are some pretty heft incentives especially when less then a year ago the team was phasing him out. They wanted Welker on the cheap as a backup plan this year.

Spin it anyway you want it but the bottom line is if they wanted him they could have kept him. But instead it's the same old story, don't pay the players, offer what they "value" a player and end up with the Donald Jones' of the NFL. The injury prone Amendola's of the NFL. Come up short when you play teams in the playoffs and SB's that are more talented then the Pats. Brady can only do so much, they need to help him out a bit.

shmessy said:

I guess you didn;t hear how they extended Gronk, Hernandez, Mayo, Wilfork and others for long-term generous contracts well before they had to.

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Don't for a minute think they didn't give Gronk and Hernandez contract extensions now because they would have to pay them a whole lot more later.

Why didn't they offer Welker an extension or redo his first contract when he was out performing it? Most teams do that, they didn't with Welker. He totally out performed his first contract without an extension. But they are willing to do that to other players on the team!?!? That just goes to show you why Welker had to be frustrated. Then they offer him a low dollar deal with crazy to reach incentives. It's a shame. The Pats totally misplayed this one.

Apparently some people on this forum think that it's the Patriots' obligation to pay a player whatever he wants, even when no other team in the league is willing to pay him that much.

Those people don't really understand how any of this works. The Pats weren't willing to put themselves in a position where an agent could work them over. I'm fine with that. It was the right call.

BradyFTW! said:

Apparently some people on this forum think that it's the Patriots' obligation to pay a player whatever he wants, even when no other team in the league is willing to pay him that much.

Those people don't really understand how any of this works. The Pats weren't willing to put themselves in a position where an agent could work them over. I'm fine with that. It was the right call.

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What a totally crazy post. Right call, Ha! It's not like it would have taken a lot more $ to keep Welker on the team. He wasn't asking for crazy money here. The market was different less then a year ago, when it changed Welker changed what he was willing to accept. I mean really, they continue to follow the same plan as they did years ago, it doesn't work. Instead of spending some money on a good young safety they go out and get an old vet who probably won't be an every down player. Quantity over Quality, it doesn't work like that anymore. When it counts they lose to teams who are more talented.

naF staP said:

I mean really, they continue to follow the same plan as they did years ago, it doesn't work. Instead of spending some money on a good young safety they go out and get an old vet who probably won't be an every down player. Quantity over Quality, it doesn't work like that anymore. When it counts they lose to teams who are more talented.

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Seriously? They already have a bunch of young safeties. They needed an older vet. What's more preposterous is your assertion that the plan doesn't work. It doesn't work when they get the wrong players; when they do, it works swimmingly.

naF staP said:

I mean really, they continue to follow the same plan as they did years ago, it doesn't work. Instead of spending some money on a good young safety they go out and get an old vet who probably won't be an every down player. Quantity over Quality, it doesn't work like that anymore. When it counts they lose to teams who are more talented.

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Tom Jackson after the Patriots cut Lawyer Milloy and lost the opener to Milloy and the Bills 31-0:

"The Patriots , the players HATE their coach".

Rodney Harrison says hello (ask your parents who Rodney Harrison was).

shmessy said:

Tom Jackson after the Patriots cut Lawyer Milloy and lost the opener to Milloy and the Bills 31-0:

"The Patriots , the players HATE their coach".

Rodney Harrison says hello (ask you parents who Rodney Harrison was).

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Hahahaha, I know exactly who Rodney is. Matter of fact I talked to him less then a year ago and asked him what he thought would happen with Welker. He gave me one of those deer in the headlight looks, shook his head and said "you just never know what the Patriots are going to do. I hope he is back." That was a very telling response from him, imo.