Looking back at the wreckage: Notes, observations, rants and questions

Deus Irae said:

While this is true, it's also a bit misleading (not that I think you're trying for that). There are always injuries, but let's look at who's been injured, and when, for Patriots losses post-SB:

2006 - much of the defense is hurt/sick in the second half. Alexander is forced into a game the Patriots were dominating, and Manning comes back by making him his *****.

2007 - Brady gets bad ankle injury in the AFCCG, Neal is lost early in the SB, and the TEs are freakin' [highlight]all[/highlight] essentially useless due to injury.

2009 - an extremely limited offense loses Welker in the last game of the regular season

2011 - Gronk lost for SB

2012 - Gronk lost, Talib lost early in game, Jones hobbled and mostly useless for much of the latter part of the year.


Not to single out lesser players, but can we just have 2013 be the year that the starters are healthy and the guys who get too hurt to play well are the backups coming in for a play or two instead of key players?

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No, I agree we've seen injuries to key players. I am far to lazy to research it, but I'd wager Super Bowl combatants are generally healthy.

Deus Irae said:

I deliberately waited a little while before posting after the game. It was obvious that people had lost their minds just by reading thread titles. So, apologies in advance if some of this contains errors due to memory issues, but I haven't re-watched the game. Having said that, I'll keep the O.P. short....

1. Prior to this game, I don't remember the last time I had actually hated an offensive game plan. It was as if the Patriots decided to avoid attacking every Ravens weakness.
2. Lloyd has become so contact-phobic that he's now diving to the turf on fairly wide open and easy catches. That has to be dealt with, or he'll be all but useless in the future.
3. Also, why has Lloyd evolved into a short-middle guy in the offense? That's poor utilization of him.
4. For those who used to bash on Maroney for his "dancing", he's got company now.
5. Arrington is absolutely awful on the outside. He's an inside CB3, at his very best, and is really a CB4. It's terrible to have to point this out again after all the draft picks and other signinigs, but this team needs to add an outside CB [highlight]even if[/highlight] Talib returns.
6. That said, this team's top priorities in the draft need to be S, WR and OL, probably in that order. If Gregory's the answer, I don't want to hear the question.
7. If the officials are going to let Dennard run downfield with a glove on his opponents, that kid is going to be very tough to throw on in the future. He's got a tenacity that I'm not sure anyone else in that secondary has, and that includes Mr. Talib.
8. This team's linebackers should be in a 3-4 in non-passing situations. That was shown, once again, in that game, IMO. Whether they accomplish that by putting Jones in as the "elephant", or by dropping Ninkovich into the LB group isn't as important to me as them actually doing it.
9. Take Welker and Gronk out of that offense, and you might have the softest group in the NFL.
10. Why the hell didn't the Patriots put in a Woodhead/Vereen duo into the game and then just empty the backfield or move Hernandez back there while splitting the WRs out? That's exactly the sort of thing that would have taxed that Ravens defense.
11. Brady needs to run when the run is there.
12. Lastly, to have the Super Bowl right there, and to see it taken away largely because of injuries (again) and poor play by the Patriots rather than dominance by the opponent, is starting to feel a bit too much like Charlie Brown kicking and Lucy holding.

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Pretty much agree with your analysis.

There's been some very good analysis of this teams issues both on this board and on the radio in recent days.
Interesting observations I've heard in recent days,

*When the Patriots were punched in the nose by the Ravens they responded the way all teams do - they showed their true team personality.
Remember how we heard all year about balance on offense, about running the ball, Patriots now have two quality RB's? When the Ravens punched the Patriots in the face the Patriots responded by morphing back into who they really are - the Indy Colts. The run was abandoned, the creative playcalling was abandoned, the utilization of ALL the weapons on offense was abandoned. Aggressiveness was abandoned. Brady refused to run for makeable 1st downs. Belichick refused to go on 4th down in Raven territory.
They became a vanilla, pass happy and Brady-centric against a team that could be run on. They became timid when they should have been "in your face".

*What John Elway wants to build in Denver is a team much like the one he had late in his career when he finally won championships - a team with a terrific run game and defense that does not need the QB to dominate in order to win. The Patriots need to acquire that philosophy.

*Outside of the 2007 NE Patriots, clearly the best team top to bottom in the NFL that year, the Patriots have NOT been the best team in football every year since 2004. This run of excellence they've been on really is a testament to the QB, the coach and the quality of their team preparation.

*Patriots would have struggled to beat San Francisco in the SB. Losing out in the championship game, a rarity for this team, is preferable to losing a 3rd straight Super Bowl.

*Patriots can win it all next year. (Agreed!!!)

*The Niners are going to crush the Ravens in the Super Bowl. Game has blowout written all over it. (Definitely agree )

Brady_to_Moss said:

Also if the pats can somehow get a pass rush..it will take a lot of pressure off secondary. But that remains to be seen...haven't had a pass rush in years

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What? You don't remember that killer pass rush we had in preseason of last year? (It's funny to think about now, but I clearly remember sports radio being excited about the new aggressive pass rushing Patriots).

well...I finally finished watching the DVR of this game...what I saw in person is confirmed.

During the game I was constantly questioning the D calls...where was the gap blitzing? In my humble opinion., a beanstalk like Flacco is a sitting duck if the Ravens choose to pass first and hurry up..as the second half progressed the line play not only came to a standstill, it was pushed back.

The Pats got physically manhandled playing essentially vanilla. A one game aberration?..picked a helluva game to deviate. In my opinion we need another monster D tackle and a LB/DE with length and speed to attack the QB in the pocket. Free agency, the draft, I don't care how...we need bodies with length, inside, to block off passing lanes used by the QB and at the same time provide consistent pressure.

Greetings,
I thought I was the only one who noticed Lloyd always falling down when he was open and on easy catches. I call it LLoyding.

Celticboy04

Joker said:

well...I finally finished watching the DVR of this game...what I saw in person is confirmed.

During the game I was constantly questioning the D calls...where was the gap blitzing? In my humble opinion., a beanstalk like Flacco is a sitting duck if the Ravens choose to pass first and hurry up..as the second half progressed the line play not only came to a standstill, it was pushed back.

The Pats got physically manhandled playing essentially vanilla. A one game aberration?..picked a helluva game to deviate. In my opinion we need another monster D tackle and a LB/DE with length and speed to attack the QB in the pocket. Free agency, the draft, I don't care how...we need bodies with length, inside, to block off passing lanes used by the QB and at the same time provide consistent pressure.

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A tangent/side effect of this is that the Patriots have now lost 3 straight playoff games to hard playing teams that didn't commit a turnover, and the 2009 game to a hard playing game that won the turnover battle handily. Something that some of us were pointing out throughout the season is the fickle nature of turnovers, and people consistently refused to accept that point. Well, the Patriots are now -7 in turnovers

2-4
0-1
0-1
0-3

in the 4 playoff losses since Brady's return from his knee injury, and they have forced turnovers in only one of those games. If people want to look for places to "blame", that's a good one right there. In the Brady era, the Patriots have never lost a playoff game when they've won the turnover battle, and they've only lost 2 playoff games (2006, 2007) where there was an even number of turnovers.

Sorry, but I couldn't get by

1. Prior to this game, I don't remember the last time I had actually hated an offensive game plan. It was as if the Patriots decided to avoid attacking every Ravens weakness.

It wasn't the game plan- play calling- it was poor execution and missed opportunities. The Patriots should have had a 24-7 going into the locker room at half.



Dropped balls and badly thrown balls and missed blocks - it was all there. It had nothing to do with game planning or play calling. They shot themselves in the foot repeatedly while the defense played a very good half.

PATSNUTme said:

Sorry, but I couldn't get by

1. Prior to this game, I don't remember the last time I had actually hated an offensive game plan. It was as if the Patriots decided to avoid attacking every Ravens weakness.

It wasn't the game plan- play calling- it was poor execution and missed opportunities. The Patriots should have had a 24-7 going into the locker room at half.



Dropped balls and badly thrown balls and missed blocks - it was all there. It had nothing to do with game planning or play calling. They shot themselves in the foot repeatedly while the defense played a very good half.

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I'm one of the more fervent defenders of the team's O.C. and D.C., generally speaking. Not this time. The playcalling sucked. They designed a game plan that was built to lessen risk but, as a result, required too high a success rate if it was going to thrive, and left Welker too succeptible to taking a beating. That's stupid football in the playoffs when you don't have an enormous talent disparity or are going against defenses that are capable of doing what the Patriots like to do, which is forcing opponents to be perfect over a period of long plays if they're going to succeed. Vereen and Woodhead [highlight]combined[/highlight] for only 3 catches, for crying out loud.

The Patriots got beaten at their own game, and a fair chunk of the reason why is the poor playcalling. It was so bad that I'm wondering if Daboll had significant input into it.

Deus Irae said:

I'm one of the more fervent defenders of the team's O.C. and D.C., generally speaking. Not this time. The playcalling sucked. They designed a game plan that was built to lessen risk but, as a result, required too high a success rate if it was going to thrive, and left Welker too succeptible to taking a beating. That's stupid football in the playoffs when you don't have an enormous talent disparity or are going against defenses that are capable of doing what the Patriots like to do, which is forcing opponents to be perfect over a period of long plays if they're going to succeed. Vereen and Woodhead [highlight]combined[/highlight] for only 3 catches, for crying out loud.

The Patriots got beaten at their own game, and a fair chunk of the reason why is the poor playcalling. It was so bad that I'm wondering if Daboll had significant input into it.

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How many times did they get inside the Ravens 30 in the 1st half? Poor play calling or game planning does not get you there.

I'm just not buying that when my lying eyes tell me different. But people can believe what they want.

Deus Irae said:

I'm one of the more fervent defenders of the team's O.C. and D.C., generally speaking. Not this time. The playcalling sucked. They designed a game plan that was built to lessen risk but, as a result, required too high a success rate if it was going to thrive, and left Welker too succeptible to taking a beating. That's stupid football in the playoffs when you don't have an enormous talent disparity or are going against defenses that are capable of doing what the Patriots like to do, which is forcing opponents to be perfect over a period of long plays if they're going to succeed. Vereen and Woodhead [highlight]combined[/highlight] for only 3 catches, for crying out loud.

The Patriots got beaten at their own game, and a fair chunk of the reason why is the poor playcalling. It was so bad that I'm wondering if Daboll had significant input into it.

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I don't disagree because they did put themselves in a position to have to convert so many plays to drive the length of the field. On the other hand, while they failed on 8 3rd downb conversions at least 6 where plays they make almost all the time. The plan put them in a position to make plays that they normally make, and they didn't. Of course they don't normally ask them to need to make so many.
I guess if you take it a step futher converting all 8 of those only would have created the need to convert 8 more.
Very frustrating.

PATSNUTme said:

How many times did they get inside the Ravens 30 in the 1st half? Poor play calling or game planning does not get you there.

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Sure it does. As you'll note, the drives died. That's what happens.

PATSNUTme said:

I'm just not buying that when my lying eyes tell me different. But people can believe what they want.

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Fair enough, and they will. In this case, what I (and many/most other people as well) believed going in, and what I saw in the game itself, happen to coincide in terms of what succeeded and what failed, and tends to lend credence to the notion that the playcalling was a significant problem.

AndyJohnson said:

I don't disagree because they did put themselves in a position to have to convert so many plays to drive the length of the field. On the other hand, while they failed on 8 3rd downb conversions at least 6 where plays they make almost all the time. The plan put them in a position to make plays that they normally make, and they didn't. Of course they don't normally ask them to need to make so many.
I guess if you take it a step futher converting all 8 of those only would have created the need to convert 8 more.
Very frustrating.

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IMO, the bolded part is the key, and too much of it was a product of the Patriots gameplanning. That gameplan played right into the hands of the Ravens. Two simple questions, for example:

1.) How does Ray Lewis cover Vereen or Woodhead if they rotate out of the backfield and go to the slot?

2.) How does Ray Lewis keep up with Vereen or Woodhead slipping out of the backfield for a late dump pass to the side?


Edit:

Let me toss in a 3rd question:

How do the Ravens match up their personnel to counter

Welker
Lloyd
Hernandez
Vereen
Woodhead

if the Patriots take that and go empty backfield?

Deus Irae said:

Sure it does. As you'll note, the drives died. That's what happens.



Fair enough, and they will. In this case, what I (and many/most other people as well) believed going in, and what I saw in the game itself, happen to coincide in terms of what succeeded and what failed, and tends to lend credence to the notion that the playcalling was a significant problem.

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Just one more point. TFB can and does change many plays at the line. He also meets and helps put the game plan together.

So if it's bad play calling or game planning at fault then Josh, BB,Brian, and TFB share the blame for bad play calls, the dropped balls, the missed blocks, not hitting the right hole, and poor throws, and not finishing drives.

But to me, it's poor execution as the #1 cause for not finishing the drives. Not saying all play calls were perfect, but it does let too many people off the hook when blaming play calling as #1 reason.

it was execution...there's a thread here on the Welker drop...OK...which one???? I saw three that had me gnashing my teeth and almost knocking Seacoast fan over with my flailing arms...this was a TEAM loss...and the INT's meant shyt in this game...the failed execution on critical downs series after series in the first half spelled doom for our team...everyone seems to forget, Brady threw a ball over the head of Ahern on a simple toss, after faking the entire Raven team to the left...that play had 40 yards down deep on it if it had a yard...a simple pitch and catch...forked up...total play was what killed them in this game...that means everyone shares,and Belichick takes the most blame because this team was NOT ready to perform as they had for most of the season

PATSNUTme said:

Just one more point. TFB can and does change many plays at the line. He also meets and helps put the game plan together.

So if it's bad play calling or game planning at fault then Josh, BB,Brian, and TFB share the blame for bad play calls

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I agree

PATSNUTme said:

the dropped balls, the missed blocks, not hitting the right hole, and poor throws

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That's execution, not playcalling

PATSNUTme said:

and not finishing drives.

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That's both playcalling and execution, along with other factors. This loss had lots of hands in the kettle.

PATSNUTme said:

But to me, it's poor execution as the #1 cause for not finishing the drives. Not saying all play calls were perfect, but it does let too many people off the hook when blaming play calling as #1 reason.

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The playcalling sucked. My posts didn't claim that it was the #1 reason for the loss. You're battling a straw man of your own creation when you make that argument.


Playcalling
Injury
Turnovers (be they a result of good/bad play or fortune)
Execution
Penalties/Non-penalties
"WTH?" moves even when something starts out successful (I.E. Lloyd diving for every damn pass)

There's plenty of blame to go around, and plenty of "around" to be blamed.

Very concerned at Lewis' claim that they had figured out all the words, looks, and keys of the super no huddle.

Joker said:

Brady threw a ball over the head of Ahern on a simple toss,

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That was bad everything. Brady should have made the difficult throw. AHern should have backed up when he saw Krugman leaping so as to be a better target. Coaching should have had Ahern backed up so as to be a better target.

Actually, it wasn't really "bad everything", as it was darned good to create the opportunity they then screwed up.

well, that's my point...that play worked about as good as it could from the looks of it but the execution was very, very sloppy....I don't know if you have access to a DVR of the game but if you do you can see that there was no answer from the Ravens for that play..yes, Brady had to throw it over a player's hands but how hard is it to pull off?...he threw it over and past the wide open Ahern...that play was designed to get a big payoff and it set up perfectly...execution is what led to the failure.

Joker said:

well, that's my point...that play worked about as good as it could from the looks of it but the execution was very, very sloppy....I don't know if you have access to a DVR of the game but if you do you can see that there was no answer from the Ravens for that play..yes, Brady had to throw it over a player's hands but how hard is it to pull off?...he threw it over and past the wide open Ahern...that play was designed to get a big payoff and it set up perfectly...execution is what led to the failure.

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No argument. There was nobody near Hernandez, and only a single obstacle to the throw. The ball should have gotten to him.

DocHoliday said:

Very concerned at Lewis' claim that they had figured out all the words, looks, and keys of the super no huddle.

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So a good defense knew exactly what the Patriots were going to do, and still the Patriots ran 82 plays, had 28 first downs, and racked up 428 yards.

Shows you how damned good the Patriots are.