Talib should be the #1 priority this off-season, not Welker

PatriotDynasty_12 said:

Anyone else go "Oh,****" when Talib went down yesterday? I know I did. And of course, my gut feeling was right. It really amazes me that 1 player could have such an effect on this whole D and just goes to show Talib was our defensive MVP. This D was shutting down Flacco with Talib being able to lockdown Boldin...which brings me to the TRICKLE-DOWN effect.

I'm sure a lot of you noticed the trickle-down effect Talib had on this D.
-Moved McCourty to S, where he is a top 5-10 Safety
-Moved Arrington to the slot, where he is actually pretty good
-Allowed our D to actually blitz!!!

^that right there made this D good enough to win a championship and I'll be very pissed if we let our first reliable corner in 5 years slip away cause he would be "too expensive"

It's been a painful ride trying to draft and sign corners these past 5 years and BB FINALLY FOUND his, tall, strong, physical corner that can take this D to a whole new level.

I see people on here saying we should offer him "4 to 5" million a year...LOL! I'm sorry, but i don't want to watch the same awful D get torched for another couple years. That won't win us a Super bowl. The Patriots can play hardball with his injury concerns, but after seeing this D go from good, when Talib was in, to garbage, when he wasn't, shows that he's worth anywhere from $7-9 million a year. And if that means letting Welker walk, you do it.

Patriots fans thoughts?

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Who would you have rather lost yesterday...talib or welker?

PatriotDynasty_12 said:

I disagree completely. Baltimore's offense was non-existent when Talib was playing. Then, 2nd half comes and Flacco looks like a God.

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I think a lot of the Pats 1st half success against the Ravens offense was due to Caldwell calling runs on 1st and 2nd down on every drive. Once he started passing on 1st and 2nd down we were toast. Missing Talib hurt and I hope they resign him but the Pats need a few more defensive pieces to be a really good D.

vuudu said:

Can he stay healthy after making a play in any game?

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You can cover that with playing time incentives. But you will also find scant comfort in them if he simply can't be counted on to play consistently.

The secondary improved when they signed misunderstood veteran corner Bodden to a prove it deal in 2009 and he played very well. Then they extended him on a 4 year $22M deal with $10M guaranteed and he never set foot on the playing field again... He was released in 2011 with a $6M remaining dead cap hit.

They have to figure out who and what Talib is between now and mid March and weigh that against alternative options. They need to fill the position for sure, but it doesn't have to be with Talib unless they are confident he's a player they can depend on.

Talib has stayed off the news since becoming a Patriot, but I still feel like he's a very risky character to have on the roster. If he signs with that in mind, it'll be a no-brainer, but if he wants a lot.. I can't see it happening.

MoLewisrocks said:

The secondary improved when they signed misunderstood veteran corner Bodden to a prove it deal in 2009 and he played very well. Then they extended him on a 4 year $22M deal with $10M guaranteed and he never set foot on the playing field again... He was released in 2011 with a $6M remaining dead cap hit.

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He played a little bit, just not well at all. That's what started the Dowling hype train though, because he was starting over Bodden before anybody (even the coaches) knew that Bodden was injured. Ended up being a career ending injury. (It was a herniated disk)

Talib plays well and was the best in the secondary when he was healthy. Check with Bucs fans. The guy is a heartbreaker...seems to always not be there when you need him most. They kept saying it would burn us and it finally did.

Simple Jack's Brother said:

I think $7-9 mil is a very fair price. Obviously there are off-field concerns (that can be addressed in the contract language), but CB is such a PREMIUM these days. I mean Revis by himself turned the Jets into a competitive team. I'm not comparing Talib to Revis, but a talented CB above 6ft tall is so so difficult to find these days. WR's are only getting more athletic and talented, and with the way the league is trending, i would gladly pay Talib that kind of money, let Welker walk (sorry, it's a business), and plug in Edelperson or some1 else on the cheap. Our D seriously looked ok when he was playing, and pretty dreadful when he was out. TB's window is closing, and I think paying the man (with carefully worded language) is the way to go. Let us focusing on drafting a safety to pair w/McCourty and injecting more speed into the offense.

/End rant.

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He played 26 of 44 possible quarters since we acquired him. His value is overblown severally. Is his agent writing in these threads?

I like Talib and I hope he comes back but, who was the one out there hobbling around making tough catches while the other stood on the sideline? We don't know the severity of Talib's injury but just sayin' Wes is a warrior. Would hate to lose him. Had a couple of key drops but really need to get him back. Kinda nervous giving Talib too much money. Not sure who else is out there.

mgteich said:

Arrington does not stink as a nickel or number 4 corner. We have room for 4-5 corners. As of now, we have Dennard for 2013. I would be happy for Arrington to be our Number 4 or nickel.

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Speaking of Dennard, keep him away from the db coaches this offseason. Send him to disney world or something. I'm going to cry if he shows up in the preseason and stops looking back for the ball.

:bricks:

can we keep talib instead please

I don't think that there's any chance that Talib stays personally.

What he did show us is what this defense can be capable of when a physical CB is involved, as far as being much more aggressive.

That CB does not necessarily need to be Aqib Talib, whose comments to me surely didn't sound like he thinks he's coming back (just speculation on my part).

I think they'll offer him something, sure, but I have a feeling that he isn't going to take the kind of money that the team will be comfortable with.

One more thing to consider: his value here has been overrated by many, and this thread is a prime example of that. We can find a CB who can play tougher than what we've had, hell--they were going to try this year anyway, before he even came here. What we will have problems replacing is another Wes Welker.

supafly said:

I don't think that there's any chance that Talib stays personally.

What he did show us is what this defense can be capable of when a physical CB is involved, as far as being much more aggressive.

That CB does not necessarily need to be Aqib Talib, whose comments to me surely didn't sound like he thinks he's coming back (just speculation on my part).

I think they'll offer him something, sure, but I have a feeling that he isn't going to take the kind of money that the team will be comfortable with.

One more thing to consider: his value here has been overrated by many, and this thread is a prime example of that. We can find a CB who can play tougher than what we've had, hell--they were going to try this year anyway, before he even came here. What we will have problems replacing is another Wes Welker.

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Supafly can I just say I really enjoy your posts and you're the most educated and thorough poster in here IMO. I really appreciate your input and how you analyze/align both sides of a debate.

Currently we have Lloyd as the only WR signed and Dennard (and Dowling if you still are holding out hope) as the only CB signed. These are obviously the top 2 priorities.

I'd say CB is a greater priority over WR. You might be able to take a hit at WR since we have the best TE in the game, a strong running game and the best QB in the game. We can't afford to get worse at CB since our LB's are Poor in coverage, our pass rush is inconsistent and the safety play excluding McCourty is average at best.

As far as Talib vs. other options for a #1 CB I'll take Talib. Don't wanna waste valuable draft capital on moving up to get the top CB when we need those picks to fill other needs. I'd don't think Miami will let Sean Smith leave after they traded Vontae Davis. DRC is a worse player than Talib. Brent Grimes is 3 years older, will cost just as much and probably won't leave ATL anyways. I'd pay Talib up to 5/45 but I think it will get done for 5/40 since he's had a few off field incidents. People acting like it'll be easy to find another competent CB are forgetting the last 2 years.

I think Talib will give us a discount he's been injured more than he's actually played for us...that might be a blessing going forward. I don't think his market value will be as high as most think he comes with a baggage. Also I think Dennard's upside in year Two is going to be Great. I hope we NEVER see Kyle Arrington on this Team again he's absolute garbage.

Good god, the franchise tag on Talib? How does this thought even cross someone's mind? If he had been on the field and played the way he did against AJ in every game since the trade, then we might have a multi-year, incentive-laden contract. The fact that he was oft-injured does not go unnoticed in contract negotiations. He's got off the field issues, he's fragile, he's been suspended, and his previous team was about to cut him. These aren't characteristics of players who get multi-year, market deals. If his agent came at BB with a conversation anything like "we wan't top corner money", he got laughed out of the room.

I like the way he played, but the fact that he's in the conversation for money like Sean Smith or DRC is talk that belongs on a Redskins board.

SeymourTrophies said:

Good god, the franchise tag on Talib? How does this thought even cross someone's mind? If he had been on the field and played the way he did against AJ in every game since the trade, then we might have a multi-year, incentive-laden contract. The fact that he was oft-injured does not go unnoticed in contract negotiations. He's got off the field issues, he's fragile, he's been suspended, and his previous team was about to cut him. These aren't characteristics of players who get multi-year, market deals. If his agent came at BB with a conversation anything like "we wan't top corner money", he got laughed out of the room.

I like the way he played, but the fact that he's in the conversation for money like Sean Smith or DRC is talk that belongs on a Redskins board.

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I agree now way Teams throw alot of guranteed $$$ his way. Like you said if his agents talks him up as the best thing since slice bread...his bread aint getting buttered here!

1%er said:

My only concern with Talib is his ability to stay on the field.

2008 - 15 games
2009 - 15 games
2010 - 11 games
2011 - 13 games
2012 - 10 games

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to be fair... he missed like 4-5 games due to suspension this year.


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Brandon Carr and Cortland Finnegan both got 5 year, 50 mill deals last off season. Jason McCourty got a 5 year 43 mill extension. SF may have got the best value signing Carlos Rodger to a 4 year 30 mil deal although he was a few years older than the other 3. Perhaps this allowed SF to go 4 years instead of 5. This was all last offseason. Namdi got 5 /60 although he hasn't lived up to it.

Point is that if u want a legit number 1 CB you will need to pay him 7-8 mil a year at an absolute minimum or draft one and hope he's ready Day 1. Considering the CB's who are legit #1s in there rookie years generally go top 10, and our current draft capital that's not a realistic option. Or the other option is find a guy who has high potential but has yet to put it all together consistently. Someone like DRC and you probably still pay him 5 per. I'll pass.

Talib's injury history is also greatly over stated. He's played in 80% of the games in his career and missing 5% of those games was due to his suspension. So your talking about a guy who has missed 15% of the games due to injury, not ideal but certainly not enough to earn you a huge discount.

I'd certainly start negotiations pointing to McCourty and Rodgers contracts as well as the missed time an make 4/30 offer. His agent will likely point to Carr and Finnegan contracts, our lack of quality CB's and ask for 5/50. Then you try and settle in the middle, maybe put PT incentives in there to protect yourself.

The #1 CB position and/or the safety position (whether they resign Talib or replace him or move McCourty back to CB and upgrade the safety position) is probably the biggest priority for this team. That said. Retaining Talib is not.

Talib has been decent as the #1 CB (I would argue McCourty was better), but he isn't worth big money. He has been inconsistent and his impact was more that his presence allowed the Pats to upgrade two positions by moving McCourty to safety and Dennard to RCB. His personal play was all over the place from great at times to worse than people were complaining about McCourty's play.

If Talib is demanding good to great starting CB money, I'd say pass on the guy and go after one of the other guys on the market. Talib hasn't been that good and he couldn't stay healthy to command good CB money and that is without his off the field issues.

People wanting Talib regardless of durability, price and questionable character just shows how desparate we are for secondary help.